Thoughts: crew secondary weapons and squad capabilities

[Redwolf]

I was thinking about CM and some stuff that is nagging me.

One of the things that nag me is that the secondary armament of heavy

weapon crew is modeled with very low effectivity, it is practically

useless. You would think that a 6-man mortar crew in foxholes, aware

of upcoming enemies, will keep them at bay pretty good. Granted, they

will run out of small-arms ammunition sooner, but until they do they

have 6 riles or even some SMGs.

The same for flamethrower teams. The second dude is carrying a rifle

for a reason, and often he got an MP44 or other highly effective

small-arm.

Now, obviously you don't want to raise the capabilities up to squads

of the same mancount, that would be unrealistic. How to resolve the

problem?

It just occurred to me that the problem is not that you can't give the

crews decent weapons.

The problem is that squads are not effective enough.

Still with me? OK, lets look at what a squad would really do better

than a mortar crew. Would squads do better is maneuvering, and

particularly under fire. What squads do better is bringing effective

smallarms fire on an enemy, suppressing them, while at the same time

moving in. What they do better is grenading them, while being

protected by the LMG(s). They carry a lot more ammunition.

Overall, there is a reason why they practice assaulting, there is a

reason why they have squad and team leaders, why they hang with ammo

for the LMG and grenades.

So, I think I would like to resolve that conflict leading to the

underpowered crew by upgrading the crews to their real smallarms, and

at the same time give the squads the benefits they would deserve. The

advantage of assault should be much bigger than it is. There should

be abstracted treatment of an assault which uses the LMG for

suppression and the rest of the gang moves in for grenading or SMG

shooting, without the player having to split the squad manually and

take the morale hit. Morale of halfway intact squads should be way

better than that of other infantry when they are on the move (defense

might be the same).

I would also think that there is some overdetailing going on with the

current movement schemes. Fast, advance and assault could be

abstracted into one, with the unit automatically switching depending

on whether there is enemy fire or not. That also avoid the problem of

people continuing to run for up to a minute due to the turn limits.

But I guess I should save that for a different post.

[MikeyD]

The 'underpowered' crews (hvy mg squads, bailed tank crews, etc.) is a BIG improvement over CMBO where they were as defenseless as fuzzy kittens! BFC had a couple things to juggle with this feature. First, they wanted to provide some crew protection, but they didn't want to see gamey all bailed tanker infantry rushes during a game - a distinct possibility if the firepower's raised too high. These troops may be carrying carbines, rifles or pistols but the biggest stop to their use as infantry is the distinct lack of ammo carried. Imagine you're on the battlefield and all you've got is a single lousy clip in your rifle. You're going to save on using that until its really REALLY necessary!

[junk2drive]

And when the time comes that the trench is being overrun, I would like my mortar crewmen to drop the mortar rounds and pick up a rifle and use it.

[Akula2]

lol.

thats great!

tank bails and wins the game! i love it!

hehe, if they get to my mortars ... i got bigger problems than them boys with their hands in the air.

Good for them.

They live!

[junk2drive]

Akula2, do you ever lose? play on defense?

Try HSG-B-The Forest Battle as Allies. Or First Town Liberated. Both are ops.

[Grimly Fiendish]

Some comments:

1) Certain people like to use dismounted crews as scouts and annoyances. Imagine if these crews could actually do more than crawl and cower.

However, when crews are still manning their guns they could protect themselves a bit better. So armed vs "unarmed" (no primary weapon or mount) is an important distinction.

2) Assaults are hard, and should be. But setting up an urban defense appears to require little thought. Determined squads ought to be able to advance briefly in the semi-open (what else is there in Italy and Africa?) against them if they are suppressed enough or low on ammo. I haven't seen this.

3) I've read of paratroopers at Bastogne "reaching for the nearest bazooka and opening up" when they saw Tigers appear. Even gunners. So that means that even at Bastogne (which, granted, was originally behind the lines but still was poorly and irregularly supplied) there were enough bazookas to be available to all kinds of soldiers. Seems to me there could be an editable field for such weapons, even if the default value for QBs were zero.

[Redwolf]

I only want to give heavy weapon crews (not vehicle crews) the smallarms they deserve.

As I explained, they should be heavily penalized in all maneuver compared to a real squad. And the squads in turn I want bumped up, reflecting their training as a group, and in fire teams, and their leadership.

In the scheme I imagine it will be more difficult, not easier, to abuse infantry crews. The only thing crews will do better is defending themself and suppress enemy movement.

[junk2drive]

I agree with Redwolf. One way would be to give crews rifles, but somehow limit their movement or speed. That way they should not be able to be used as offensive squads.

OTOH, in RL, on offense, would a commander order the crew of a destroyed weapon to pick up arms and join the fight? Or would they pack up and head to the rear?

[poppy]

The big problem and what I believe BF is simulating is Command. A tank crew bails out or a mortar crew abandons its mortar they are out of Command. So they are running or hiding and some "Commander" needs to get them back on the line. Make them report to, via command line, to a squad leader or platoon leader or company commander.Equip them with their historical weapons and treat them as any other infantryman but only after they come within the command radius of a commanding unit.

[poppy]

Hint Hint

[Akula2]

I lose often and dramatically junkdrive.

Regardless, if my mortars are under small arms fire, I still contend that I must have bigger problems. Thats also the fun of the game.

One thing I would like to see in the spirit of the topic is the remanning of at least HMGs. more often than not the crews are killed or wounded and it would seem to me they left a perfectly good machine gun behind complete with ammo.

If a squad could rearm this position, it would make perfect sense to me. Certainly it's key.

I'm an old moldly ASL guy. I'm accustomed to chasing down "working order" support weapons.

=)

[junk2drive]

Sorry if I misunderstood the other post. Yes I have been in that "trouble" and it is made worse by the crew plinking with their pistols. I have, however, had a crew eliminate a squad charging their trench. Probably one guy panicing to the other side, but eliminated none the less.

[Akula2]

cool.

mine usually just surrender, lolz.

just as a thought, it seems to me that a mortar crew is close in security. Stealth and restraint would seem to be the order of the day for such a team. Perhaps more than a few of them are busy with ammo also.

I won't even adress vehicle crews. Imo they should be taken out of the player's control upon bailing and make for the rear.

Machine guns? Perhaps the rifle firepower is built in to the inherent firepower?

... just some thoughts.

[narren2002]

i was p;aying a QB here today, had green troops all around...and had this green flamthrower team.. one man down and the other was about to flam his target...but out of no where some small arms fire where heard and the enemy was down... i looked all over the place to see if any of my guys could have done this... but not a single one was near the enemy sept for the flamthrower... did he use his pistal to shoot his target enemy or did the enemy shoot him self so as to not get BAR-B-Q'ed ????? has any one seen this before ..is it a bug ... or what....

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by poppys:

The big problem and what I believe BF is simulating is Command. A tank crew bails out or a mortar crew abandons its mortar they are out of Command. So they are running or hiding and some "Commander" needs to get them back on the line. Make them report to, via command line, to a squad leader or platoon leader or company commander.Equip them with their historical weapons and treat them as any other infantryman but only after they come within the command radius of a commanding unit.

I should mention more clearly that I don't want vehicle crews treated this way. As far as I'm concerned the game would be better without them, or with them not transmitting any information.

However, it is perfectly valid to expect heavy weapon crews to man foxholes and shoot at advancing infantry with the weapons they historically had.

I think the best example in CM is HMG teams. 6-8 mean just firing one smallarm. That's just not right, and it shows. In RoW4 I had a 2-man vehicle crew approch an HMG from behind. The HMG turned and fired for 10+ turns on the two guys, and there was nothing I could do about it. Very obviously, this is not realistic and giving the HMG crew appropriate smallarms would have been a more realistic scenario.

As for treating them elsewise, just making the crew without the weapon slower doesn't cut it. What I want is upgraded squads who's quick movement shows that they have been trained to do that, as opposed to a mortar crew who might run as fast on 100m unopposed but won't do as well under difficult conditions.

Last but not least, I think some of the commands should be collapsed and partly be replaced by SOPs.

[Guest Mike]

Do crews still count as 2-3 times the value of "ordinary" infantry? Making them somewhat expensive to loose.......

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by Akula2:

Machine guns? Perhaps the rifle firepower is built in to the inherent firepower?

It was SOP for German artillery gunners to have a light MG (MG34 or MG42) as part of their TOE for close defense --- not to mention their rifles, SMG's, etc.

Light mortar(60mm and under) crews --- just like HMG crews --- were infantrymen, complete with rifles, etc.

BFC's decision to tone down Crews was purely a game-play issue. WYMMV, I find it an acceptable compromise.

Perhaps it will be addressed in CMx2 (that, and the re-manning equipment issue).

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Mike:

Do crews still count as 2-3 times the value of "ordinary" infantry? Making them somewhat expensive to loose.......

They already are.

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Mike:

Do crews still count as 2-3 times the value of "ordinary" infantry? Making them somewhat expensive to loose.......

Yes, they do. For those who like to use them for other duties they are "VERY EXPENSIVE" substitutes. Guys that don't want to use infantry to scout and use a crew pay a heavy cost in points lost if they get them killed. I like guys that use crews like that they are like bonus points to me. I hunt enemy crews like buried treasure. They are easy to kill and very valuable.

Good Hunting.

[Dennis Grant]

On crews and bailing out:

As a Recce troop leader, I used to carry an LMG as a personal weapon (rather than the carbine that was standard practice)

I had a number of different reasons for doing so... but one of them was so that if I ever got caught out of my vehicle, I would be able to put out a disproportionate amount of firepower.

I didn't have a lot of staying power (my ammo loadout would be a box on the gun, maybe a spare box in a bandolier, and then the typical 4 30-round magazines) but if needed, I could join a fight or cover a retreat.

It is appropriate for a vehicle crew to be able to carry on the fight dismounted. Depending on the vehicle and the nature of the knockout, a crew might even take the time to dismount aux weapons and carry them along with them.

Their biggest problem is not going to be lack of firepower, but lack of ammo.

Secondly, as a commander (or even as a senior NCO) if I bail from my vehicle and am still combat-fuctional, my first priority is going to be getting back in the fight. I will kick junior crews out of their vehicle and take it over, if I need to - I'm more important. I'd expect my Alpha callsign to do the same.

There is historical evidence for this practice.

A vehicle that is not physically knocked out should be capable of being remanned by a bailed-out crew, and bailed-out commanders should be able to commendeer vehicles.

DG