Operation Veritable: Artillery Ammo Expenditures.

[tar]

I ran across some data about artillery ammo expenditures in the regimental history of the South Saskatchewan Regiment, The March of the Prairie Men by Lt.Col. G.B. Buchanan, M.B.E:

"At 0400 hours on 8th February [1945], the heavy barrage [for Operation Veritable] started. About 1,000 guns in the Canadian Army were having a field day. The 6th Field Regiment alone fired their full quota of 12,000 rounds during the day. The S. Sask. R. mortar platoon fired 10,000 H.E. and 6,000 smoke...The [s. Sask. Reg.] had no operational role to play so had a grand stand seat for the attack on the Reichswald Forest."

That's certainly a lot of mortar ammo for a unit that was actually in a support rather than operational role!

[General Bolt]

Kinda makes 54 105mm shells allotted in a scenario seem miniscule.

[Soddball]

What was Op Veritable?

[Mammou]

Veritable was a Canadian / Brit operation in Feb 45 to cross the Rhine around the Holland / German border. Siegfried Line busting.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by tar:

That's certainly a lot of mortar ammo for a unit that was actually in a support rather than operational role!

I would rather expect a unit in a supporting role to fire more ammo than one on the move, wouldn't you?

I get the feeling it was not uncommon for mortar platoons to be cross tasked in this manner.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Mammou:

Veritable was a Canadian / Brit operation in Feb 45 to cross the Rhine around the Holland / German border. Siegfried Line busting.

Not exactly - it was the operation to clear the last German units west of the Rhine, in preparation for the grand crossing.

What's the matter, Soddball, you forget what google is?

[Michael Dorosh]

Oh, and as a final note - Veritable was the largest artillery barrage of the war, IIRC - histories talk about the use of "pepperpots" and every weapon in the sector was brought to bear, including tank cannons and machineguns firing indirectly to "thicken" the barrages.

I'd suspect the South Sasks' mortar platoon was not usually so heavily tasked.

[Soddball]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mammou:

Veritable was a Canadian / Brit operation in Feb 45 to cross the Rhine around the Holland / German border. Siegfried Line busting.

Not exactly - it was the operation to clear the last German units west of the Rhine, in preparation for the grand crossing.

What's the matter, Soddball, you forget what google is? </font>

[Mammou]

I stand corrected.

Was Grenade the crossing?

I suppose I could google but I am lazy...

[DrD]

Originally posted by General Colt:

Kinda makes 54 105mm shells allotted in a scenario seem miniscule.

Well, not if you remember that a scenario only covers 20 minutes or so, and that the arty is presumably firing in other sectors also. yours is not the only battalion in the division you know.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Mammou:

I stand corrected.

Was Grenade the crossing?

I suppose I could google but I am lazy...

GRENADE was, IIRC, the US operations to clear the area west of the Rhine in the US Army sector to the south of the Canadians and British.

PLUNDER was the crossing itself by the British.

[Michael Dorosh]

This was the overall situation at the start of the VERITABLE operation.

So you were correct about it being a Siegfried Line operation. The Canadians and British attacked south easterly in VERITABLE, towards the area of Wesel as indicated on the map.

PLUNDER and follow up operations are indicated here - Canadian divisions in red, British in orange.

[Mammou]

Looking at that picture I note the symbols for the Army Groups. I didn't know that there were patches for the Allied Army Groups.

Cheers,

[Wartgamer]

Originally posted by tar:

I ran across some data about artillery ammo expenditures in the regimental history of the South Saskatchewan Regiment, The March of the Prairie Men by Lt.Col. G.B. Buchanan, M.B.E:

"At 0400 hours on 8th February [1945], the heavy barrage [for Operation Veritable] started. About 1,000 guns in the Canadian Army were having a field day. The 6th Field Regiment alone fired their full quota of 12,000 rounds during the day. The S. Sask. R. mortar platoon fired 10,000 H.E. and 6,000 smoke...The [s. Sask. Reg.] had no operational role to play so had a grand stand seat for the attack on the Reichswald Forest."

That's certainly a lot of mortar ammo for a unit that was actually in a support rather than operational role!

How many mortars in a platoon? Four? They fired 16,000 total rounds? 4000 rounds per tube? Theres 1440 minutes in a day. Thats like 11 a minute all day for the platoon. 2.777 a minute per tube?

How many guns in a Field Regt?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tar:

I ran across some data about artillery ammo expenditures in the regimental history of the South Saskatchewan Regiment, The March of the Prairie Men by Lt.Col. G.B. Buchanan, M.B.E:

"At 0400 hours on 8th February [1945], the heavy barrage [for Operation Veritable] started. About 1,000 guns in the Canadian Army were having a field day. The 6th Field Regiment alone fired their full quota of 12,000 rounds during the day. The S. Sask. R. mortar platoon fired 10,000 H.E. and 6,000 smoke...The [s. Sask. Reg.] had no operational role to play so had a grand stand seat for the attack on the Reichswald Forest."

That's certainly a lot of mortar ammo for a unit that was actually in a support rather than operational role!

How many mortars in a platoon? Four? They fired 16,000 total rounds? 4000 rounds per tube? Theres 1440 minutes in a day. Thats like 11 a minute all day for the platoon. 2.777 a minute per tube?

How many guns in a Field Regt? </font>

[Wartgamer]

So they probably fired 400K+ rounds that day?

Math

1000 tubes/24=41.6 'Regts'

41.6 x 10000 rounds =~400K+?

It may be much more since a mortar platoon cound put out as many rounds as a Regt actually.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Mammou:

Looking at that picture I note the symbols for the Army Groups. I didn't know that there were patches for the Allied Army Groups.

Sure. SHAEF had one too.

Michael

[JonS]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

So they probably fired 400K+ rounds that day?

Math

1000 tubes/24=41.6 'Regts'

41.6 x 10000 rounds =~400K+?

It may be much more since a mortar platoon cound put out as many rounds as a Regt actually.

your maths is complete pants because you missed the bit about pepperpots.

[Wartgamer]

Hence the plus sign?

[JonS]

Fireplan for VERITABLE

Main Plan:

576 x 25-pr. (221,758 rnds PD, 1,200 rnds VT)

248 x 5.5-in. (53,646 rnds)

32 x 4.5-in. (incl in 5.5-in total)

76 x 3.7-in. HAA guns (20,616 rnds, all airburst)

36 x 155mm (4,688 rnds)

40 x 7.2-in. hows (2,593 rnds PD, 432 rnds VT)

4 x 240mm hows (48 rnds)

2 x 8-in. guns (24 rnds)

12 x rocket projectors, each with 32 rails. (5,730 rnds)

Total: 1,014 guns* (plus rockets), 306,047 rnds (5,433 tons)

Pepperpots:

114 x 40-mm Bofors LAA guns (100,000 rnds HE)

24 x 17-pr A-Tk guns (4,000 rnds)

60 x 75mm (Shermans) (17,000 rnds HE)

80 x 4.2-in mortars (24,000 rnds HE)

188 x MMG (Vickers) (2,000,000 rnds)

Total (excl MMG): 278 guns, 145,000 rnds (520 tons)

Area to be assaulted was bombarded from 0500 till 0920 08FEB45, then from 0920 for six hours a barrage was fired to support the infantry as they advanced. Enemy consisted of German 84th Inf Div, in particular the forward 5 bns. 1,115 PWs were captured from these units, and it is estimated that the fireplan killed or injured a total of 60 men. An unreported number were killed during infantry combat. Total enemy strength in the area was estimated at 2250-2700 men, so about 3% of this combat strength was lost to the fireplan.

Neutralisation was 'complete' however, and comms throughout the div were rooted, which among other things rendered the German arty that did survive - about 2/3 of the 147-odd pieces supporting the 84th Inf Div - useless.

UK/Can inf cas during this phase were 459, incl 110 on mines, spread across 12 bns.

Jon

Edit: revised numbers based on better info. There is confusion in the sources between the amount dumped, the amount fired, and the time frame in which rounds were fired. The above info is from ORS Report No.26 - Fire Support in Operation VERITABLE, Effect on Forward Defensive Positions.

* Guns were from:

24 fd regts

20 mdm regts

3 HAA regts

19 hvy btys

1 super hvy regt

1 rkt bty

[ March 11, 2005, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Wartgamer]

Woh. All that and 3%? JasonC know about this??

[Other Means]

3% in a bit over a day is a hell of a lot. Plus it did it's main job of breaking the rest & isolating them from the rear. Hence the 1,115 PW.

[Wartgamer]

It's thousands of rounds per casualty (this really puts a wrench in JasonC's theory). Its 130 rounds (disregarding 40mm and MG) for each man they were shooting at! Each German 'platoon' could be getting the attention of at least one 25 pdr eight gun battery (they had 8 right?). Plus other attention from many other sources

I suppose they also used airpower? I do not see the point of the indirect MG fire. The Germans were probably balled up in the bottom of the deepest pit they could find. I doubt if the 2 million MG rounds caused a casualty.

It must have been quite a build up of ammo because I assume that it is being used up much faster than it could even be produced. Could 25 pdr be produced at 6.65 million a month?

576 x 25-pr. (221,758 rnds PD, 1,200 rnds VT)

Area to be assaulted was bombarded from 0500 till 0920 08FEB45, then from 0920 for six hours a barrage was fired to support the infantry as they advanced.

260min +240mins= 500mins

387 rnds per 25 pdr

So the 25 pdrs may not have been fast fired but rather fired at a steady rate. They may have fast fired during the early fire plan but would certainly have paced themselves during the creeping barrage.

[ March 12, 2005, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[Wartgamer]

Originally posted by Other Means:

3% in a bit over a day is a hell of a lot. Plus it did it's main job of breaking the rest & isolating them from the rear. Hence the 1,115 PW.

Its main effects were to cut every means of wire communication, break many radio tubes, destroy ammunition, damage barbed wire and some mines, spill soup, damage exposed weapons, rip apart steeples and observation points and deafen, demoralize and pin the enemy down (creeping barrage).

But 6000 tons for one German division? 100 tons per casualty? Plus all the tons of fuel to move it around? There must have been airpower also and how many tons was that?

The CW forces also had 3-5% casualties? Is this true?

But as a casualty producing agent, it clearly is showing that troops in cover are indeed, not likely to be casualties from artillery.

[ March 12, 2005, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[JonS]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

I suppose they also used airpower? I do not see the point of the indirect MG fire. The Germans were probably balled up in the bottom of the deepest pit they could find. I doubt if the 2 million MG rounds caused a casualty.

Yes they used air - heavies and tac. Heavies hit the towns to the rear (i.e., not the area covered by the FP). You don't understand the point of pepperpots. Why were "[t]he Germans ... balled up in the bottom of the deepest pit they could find"? Is that a useful place for them to be? Does it help or hinder the assault? Who cares if it causes a cas or not? What do you attribute the 1,115 PW to?

You are trying to contest JasonCs 'destruction' theory, yet you don't understand the point or purpose of 'neutralistion' (or, indeed, much at all about the CW armies).

Regards

JonS