Michael Emrys Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by Mick15: If you want a good dispassionate account from a bona fida 'Rat of Tobruk' - "Tobruk - The Great Siege Reassessed" F. Harrison, Brockhampton Press 1996.I would like to very strongly second this recommendation. Aside from being a significant historical document, this book is a damn good read and should prove a help in designing many CM scenarios on the subject. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozi_digger Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 I was sorta hoping this thread would make it to page one again so I could qualify my earlier (somewhat hazy) remarks. IIRC the 6th Australia Div attack against Bardia in December 1940, was the first against heavily fortified troops (not just isolated outposts) resulting in the defeat of the Italians and a great number of prisoners taken. A set piece battle as it were, not just armoured cars scurrying around the desert. This is not to distract from the sterling work done at Beda Fromm by the Brits in early 1941. The defence of Tobruk by 9th Div was until relieved, 9 months later. Hmmm, doesn't resemble Dunkirk to me. The Japs were stopped at Kokoda by 39th AMF Bn, mostly by firing the 25 pounders (they had hauled thru the J) at point blank range at the Japs on the opposite ridge. Milne Bay was an attempt by the Japs to outflank the Kokoda position (actual names of the ridges escape me at the moment because the spelling is too complex for my alcohol addled brain). It was not until after Milne Bay that the Japanese advance was stopped. Apologies to 39th Bn for getting them mixed up with 2/32 bn, which was part of 9th Div IIRC. If anyone wants to debate this further, I am unable to do so for two weeks, as I am going on holiday over Christmas. However, I will be glad to start a new thread at that time to further extoll the virtues of the bronzed ANZAC. 'nuf sed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by ozi_digger: IIRC the 6th Australia Div attack against Bardia in December 1940, was the first against heavily fortified troops (not just isolated outposts) resulting in the defeat of the Italians and a great number of prisoners taken. A set piece battle as it were, not just armoured cars scurrying around the desert.The Ozzies certainly did fine work at Bardia and elsewhere, but I think you have mischaracterized the battles that opened Operation Compass. The camps around Sidi Barrani were not "isolated outposts" nor were they overcome by "armoured cars scurrying around in the desert". They were fortified camps containing large numbers of men and quantities of artillery, and they required the careful use of combined arms (including in some cases naval bombardment) to achieve the stunning victory that was won. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: The Ozzies certainly did fine work at Bardia and elsewhere, Arrrrgggghhhh!!! How dare you confuse "Aussies" with that drug addled, burnt out hospital case living in Beverley Hills. The ignominy! Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Live with it, Jim. Wherever he was born and lived, he's your kind. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys: The Ozzies certainly did fine work at Bardia and elsewhere, Arrrrgggghhhh!!! How dare you confuse "Aussies" with that drug addled, burnt out hospital case living in Beverley Hills. The ignominy! </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisbech_lad Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Sheesh. Always knew Aussie blokes were a bunch of mummy boy shandy drinking big girls blouses. This confirms it. That, Sydney Mardi Gras, and some swimmer designing jewellry. "BFC got the dates wrong" "BFC got the hats wrong" "BFC got the accents wrong" BFC left out the whole sodding Indian subcontinent... But do we have Ghurkas, Rajputs and Probyn's Horse? An army with 300 years history? No, but we have Kiwis and Aussies separate, when the only difference of the two is the ratio of sheep to humans... Someone must have incriminating photos of Charles, that's what I think. (edited to be not rude about previous generations of Australians...) [ December 15, 2003, 05:16 AM: Message edited by: Wisbech_lad ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REVS Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 You're being rude, Wisbech Lad I'm sure if you were in a trench in some North African hell-hole and the word came through to you, on the Axis side, that the chaps storming the sand dunes to attack you were Aussies would: a) please you no end not bother you in the slightest c) cause a browning of your uniform d) prompt you to rehearse your best "gidday mate, my dad's from Mildura" speech I am sure that options a and b would not occur to you. But for that matter, the nasty-minded thread in the CMAK forum attacking the basic bravery of your average Italian soldier is similarly uncalled for. When, oh when, will middle-class suburban boys sitting in front of their computers in 2003 fantasising about a time more than 50 years ago begin to drop their pretensions and take it as a "given" that every last sucker who was out there in WWII is probably a braver man than most of us!!! No matter what side he was on!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by Wisbech_lad: But do we have Ghurkas, Rajputs and Probyn's Horse? An army with 300 years history? No, but we have Kiwis and Aussies separate, when the only difference of the two is the ratio of sheep to humans... there is no difference in the ratio - we Kiwis just aren't ashamed of our sheep!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisbech_lad Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Point taken, I'll edit my post. But I will leave in being rude about Australians, because, well, sledging Aussies is traditional. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REVS Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Fair enough, sledging aussies is just like conversation to us. We get up close and personal, doubt your motherhood, your fatherhood and your fundamental worth, and at the end of it all, if you fought hard and dirty enough, we'll buy you a beer. (and if you don't squeal to anyone else about how appalling we are in close combat, we'll buy you another beer and call you our mate) It's a simple game, you play to win, and if you lose, you set up the skittles again and play to win again!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Mmmm, Anzac biscuits... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick15 Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Posted by Sergei Mmmm, Anzac biscuits... ANZAC Biscuits in Finland? Is this the alternative given the price of 'tinnies' in Scandinavia? ANZAC Biscuits 2 cups rolled oats ½ cup sugar 1 cup flour 125gm butter, melted 1 tablespoon golden syrup (Tate & Lyle) 1 teaspoon baking soda 2 tablespoons boiling water Combine the oats, sugar, flour and melt together. Then add the golden syrup, and finally the baking soda dissolved in the boiling water. Put spoonfuls of the mixture on a greased tray and bake at 180°C (350°F) for 15-20 minutes or until cooked a golden-brown colour and crispy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozure Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Originally posted by REVS: When, oh when, will middle-class suburban boys sitting in front of their computers in 2003 fantasising about a time more than 50 years ago begin to drop their pretensions and take it as a "given" that every last sucker who was out there in WWII is probably a braver man than most of us!!! No matter what side he was on!!! Not to denigrate the courage and achievements of fighting men 60+ years ago, but they were human beings. Some were brave, some were not. Some were motivated by things other than honour and some died for a noble cause they believed in. One of the dangers of the deification of "The Greatest Generation" is to absolve us, living in the present, of the responsibility to act, to be brave, to stand up for what is right, in situations which don't involve someone coming at you with a bayonet. Every generation grows up in the shadow of the giants of the past. Up close, the giants are merely men, themselves standing on the shoulders of others, looking back to yet a different "greatest generation" Our challenges may not be as black and white, but the deeds we do now, the words we speak today are just as important for the future of humanity. When we forget that and bask in the reflected glory of our parents and grandparents, we betray what they fought for, willingly or not, bravely or not. Not all were brave. That is surely a fine testament to their mettle and a lesson for us all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REVS Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Well said, Kozure. I don't disagree with any of that. I just find the denigration of whole slabs of humanity (eg, 'the Italians') to be the same mentality that produces racism and other harmful prejudices. Sure, in every army there were heroes, cowards and people somewhere in-between just trying to do their best in the circumstances, but I often feel that the suburban boys playing their computer games and posting on these forums are a bit trigger-happy when it comes to judging the performance of their forefathers, and their enemies' forefathers. I'm not Italian, but when I see that thread popping up, it annoys me. I don't mind what people say about my lot, the Aussies, because our society dishes out some pretty dreadful prejudice with the best and worst of them, but I just felt like getting stuck into the nationality bashing, even if the occasion is some harmless ribbing of the Aussies because of all the whining about the accents, the dates, uniforms, etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted December 16, 2003 Author Share Posted December 16, 2003 Hear, hear. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Actually the thread about the Itallians now has more people backing them up than attacking them, its just a few people who feel they have to play "My Country WAS Better than yours". your right, any man who served in the second world war deserves all the respect that we can give him. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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