Dandelion Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Originally posted by flamingknives: Even I, in my gross ignorace of the details of the WWII Wehrmacht, know that the Germans used nicknames: Jabos. From Jagdbomber (AIUI) Tommy-Cooker (that would be the Sherman) U-boot or Boot: Unterseeboot. Possibly the 37mm was called the doorknocker, but I understand that this one may not actually have been used. They seem to have been pretty handy with acronyms too, Flak and Pak. JaBo is official abbreviation turned into unofficial acronym "Jabo". Like "VO" (Verbindungsoffizier, liason officer, pronounced as fa-o) or "VB" (Vordere Beobachter, artillery FO, pronounced fa-be) etc. Very common. U-Boot is official abbreviation used as intended, just like M-Boot (Motor boat), S-Boot (Schnell (fast) Boot (i.e. MTB)) etc. If practical, officially sanctioned abbreviations would be picked up as spoken jargon. Like KZ and SS. Flak (Fla) and Pak are officially sanctioned acronyms used as intended. Like e.g. Stuka, Dulag and Gestapo. Heeres-Anklopfgerät or Panzer-Anklopfgerät (Army doorknocker) was a real derogative term used for the 3,7 which seems to have been born in France 1940, when the crews of these were starting to suffer abnormal casualty rates. In addition there were popular abbreviations used in spoken languague but never in written such. E.g. Sani, Nazi (compare contemporary Sozi etc). And the pure army jargon used nowere else, like Zahlmops, Spiess, Etappenschwein, Küchenbullen, Papierkram, Trossknechte u.s.w. Cheers Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Originally posted by Martyr: I'm just surprised, given the tendency of soldiers to simplify and slangify terminology, that they didn't have nicknames to use when discussing the relative merits of the Kompanie's good old Panzerkampfwagen IVc's as compared to those new-fangled Panzerkampfwagen Vd's.How much simpler then 'Panzer 4' or 'Panzer IV lang' or even simply '4', 'der Vierer', or '4 Lang' does it get in terms of conveying what you are talking about? Is 'Panther' really simpler than that? In comparative conversations, e.g. looking at the merits of the Panther D over the Panther A (or whatever), they may just have referred to 'der neue' and 'der alte' (the new and the old). Who knows. I have not consciously registered a lot of use of slang for German kit in documents/memoirs I read. Apart from what has already been mentioned. I know that one particular version of T34 was called 'Micky Mouse', because it had two round turret hatches. And I fully agree with Dandelion on the quaintness of British regimental names. Canadians are just plain weird - Nova Scotia Highlanders... Uh right. That's like the London Irish, though. [nods to Richard]My favourite are the Artists Rifles [/nods to Richard]. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 BTW, while we're on nicknames, I've often wondered about the oddly variable quality of British nicknames. Some of their names, particularly for American equipment, were just spot on: the Civil War generals for US tanks worked great: Stuart, Lee, Grant, Sherman, etc. This naming system was so good it was picked up officially by the US army, and US tanks are still named after famous US generals. Similarly, the Mustang and Thunderbolt are excellent British names for the P-51 and P-47. Spitfire, Hurricane, Typhoon, Tempest and Mosquito are also excellent names for their respective British aircraft. On the other hand, when naming their own stuff, the British sometimes seem drawn to names that either seem a bit too boastful or bloodthirsty, on the one hand, or on the other hand, a bit--well, no offense meant, but--effeminant. On the bloodthirsty or vainglorious side we have aircraft carriers like Implacable, Biter, Smiter, Stalker, Striker, Trouncer, Indomitable, Vengeance and Vindictive. On the effeminant side, we have the "Flower" class of British corvette. If you were on a German U-boat you might be attacked and sunk by brilliantly manned ships with names like "Crysanthemum," "Snowdrop," "Snowflake," "Pink," "Carnation," and so forth. Where's the dignity in having to say, "After eluding depth charges from the Pink, I was sunk by the Candytuft"? Similarly, we not only have a Firefly tank but also a Fairey Firefly fighter plane! Now I ask you... :eek: So my question is, why were the British so good at some names and why are so many other names either so vainglorious or so, well, squishy? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 You mean really really frustratingly cumbersome like "5th Armoured Regt (8th Princess Louise's (New Brunswick) Hussars)"? Titles that cannot even be abbreviated into convenient form?8 PL(NB)H Simple. Lord Stratchcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) are referred to by those in the know as "LdSH" pronounced Ell Dee Ess Aitch - or as "Lord Strats" or even "the Strathconas". Interestingly, the Regiment itself got their own title wrong and the King himself, upon reading "LSH" on their shoulder titles, commented to the CO after an inspection words to the effect of "I rather thought the abbreviation for 'Lord' was "Ld"." The Regiment changed their titles immediately! The Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment are officialy "H PER", but in practice "Hasty Pees". Etc. </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> and the language itself is more complex than English. cough cough.</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siege Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Heeres-Anklopfgerät or Panzer-Anklopfgerät (Army doorknocker) was a real derogative term used for the 3,7 which seems to have been born in France 1940, when the crews of these were starting to suffer abnormal casualty rates. Actually, "Doorknocker" I belive came from the Russian front relating to the ineffectiveness of the 37mm to penetrate a T-34 from the front. Apparently the only routine successes they had were when a round struck the drivers hatch, causing it to unlatch and open by the lifting springs.... I.E. Knocking on the front door to open it. Or, at least that's what the story says in "PanzerJager". Since it's the story of an actual Pak crewmember, it has at least some authenticity to it. The book also refers to "Sturmgeshutzes", but when I get home I willl see how it refers to panzers. -Hans -Hans [ May 21, 2004, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: Siege ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Originally posted by Dandelion: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: As you point out, Germans love nicknames. Many of them are probably not recorded, at least not in English. Most English histories fail to give the regional affiliation of German divisions, for example, while histories in German do include them. Very accurate, and I couldn't agree more about the lack of vital information. Conversely, German sources never bother telling me much about "enemy" units, it is the odd joy of finding even a superficial explanation where the boys were from and what it was like living there.</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 I wonder how many German tanks carried nicknames like "Bertha" or "Margrethe". Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Russian Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Originally posted by Yaphank: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SgtDuke6216: Actually the US tankers called the Sherman, "Rolanson Lighter", "Zippos" and "Steel Coffins" because as you already know, The Sherman had a terrible survivability rate. And when hit they usually burned instantly because of the ammo location.Hmmm, I always thought it was the Germans who coined the lighter nickname for the Sherman. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Originally posted by CombinedArms: with names like "Crysanthemum," "Snowdrop," "Snowflake," "Pink," "Carnation," and so forth. Where's the dignity in having to say, "After eluding depth charges from the Pink, I was sunk by the Candytuft"? LOL! Didn't the Japanese use similar such terms, of poetic, non-martial type? Swallow, Cloud, Cheeryflower etc? I can see an AAR becoming very puzzling here. And I was positively ecstatic to discover that 'SF' stood for the Sherwood Foresters'. Images of men dressed in forest green armed with bows and arrows sprang into my head. Michael :cool: Not to mention what ideas sprang up from names like Greenjackets, Black Watch and the Honourable Artillery (or rather what the latter seems to suggest about other artillery units). Yeomanry was another favourite, with every armoured car filled to the rim with medieval farmers, straw-in-mouth. They're such a lovable and unimitable bunch, the Engländer. I believe at least the cockneys called American MP's "Snowdrops"? That sort of punctures the whole "brute" deal with MPs. Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Lord Strathcona drove the Golden Spike into the last bit of the Canadian National Railway, every Canadian school kid knows that! You named a regiment after a railroad baron? How pioneer-ish. So who was Patricia? Who was Luoise and are there places like "Grey and Simcoe"? And were the Algonquin regiment soldiers actually native Canadians? All these names referring to old British regiments, why? Was there once battallions of these regiments stationed in Canada? Why do I never get to play the mounties? Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 The names of British regiments I can handle; it's the *numbers* I can't! What am I to do when I read about the 6/9 Fleet Street Maggoteers? Are they the sixth company of the ninth battalion? Are they *most* of the F.S.M's? And why don't they simplify the fraction to 2/3? And why are the 2 North Hobbiton Slingshotters in the same bloody regiment with the 174 Cowtown Irregulars while the 4/17 North Hobbiton are way over in another division with the 42 Captain Jinx Horse Marines and the 5/12.5 Douglas Adams Mostly Harmlesses? Please explain or somefink! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Originally posted by Dandelion: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Lord Strathcona drove the Golden Spike into the last bit of the Canadian National Railway, every Canadian school kid knows that! You named a regiment after a railroad baron? How pioneer-ish. So who was Patricia? Who was Luoise and are there places like "Grey and Simcoe"? And were the Algonquin regiment soldiers actually native Canadians? All these names referring to old British regiments, why? Was there once battallions of these regiments stationed in Canada? Why do I never get to play the mounties? Cheerio Dandelion </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Thunder Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 This might clear up some of this question: http://www.panzerworld.net/facts.html#1 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
With Clusters Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 The Algoons do recruit in northern Ontario (Interesting cap badge, eh?) but they recruit from all races, the Canadian Army not being segregated as the US was until the late 1940s. Look, maybe I'm just being a little touchey, and I know this statement is fairly innoquous (compared to plenty of others I've seen), but is it always neccessary to use an example from the US for something 'bad' (segregation in this case, although read literally, it seems to be stating that it took the Canadian Army until the late 40s to achieve the US level of segregation ). Was the US Army the only military organization in the word still segregated until the late 40s? Why not say 'segregated as South Africa was until the 1990s'? Just consider the state of the world today, and ask yourself if dinging the US (especially as it regards history, and not current events) or any other particular country is really helpfull, informative or accurate(even if just a small comment), when posting to a games forum. All that will happen is some touchey fool (that'll be me this time around) will post a big, huffy, off-topic reply. Sorry, but that's my piece. Michael, if that was not your intention, I appologize for being oversensative. Anyhow, back to the topic, I found it very interesting to learn that nicknames for US armored vehicles was originally supplied by the English. Is that really so? Sort of like the nicknames given to Soviet aircraft during the Cold War, that the Russian designers seemed so pleased with! And I think the names of English/Canadian units are quite interesting and colorfull, if a bit confusing and cryptic. It certainly forges a link to the past. Not having been in any military myself, are average soldiers instructed in the history of their particular unit? Do they have to take a test? I wonder, will all Australian soldiers be required to play the new CMAK edition now, to aquire a greater understanding of what thier veterans went through? Again, sorry for being touchey. A little humility goes a long way when you're gonna criticize someone, perhaps unfairly, IMO 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 yes you are being too touchy. this is a good read on a saturday morning. i could care less if the kurds are segregated from the sunnis. i got what you meant m.d. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 I should point out further that the Calgary Highlanders didn't rename themselves as the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada simply because that regiment already existed in Hamilton, Ontario. So why did we affiliate with the Argylls? Simple - Canada had many more highland regiments than the British Army. The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) had a counterpart in The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada in Montreal. The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders had two affiliates - The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of Canada (in Winnipeg) and The Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa (MG) in the nation's capital. The Highland Light Infantry had a counterpart in The Highland Light Infantry of Canada in Cambridge, Ontario. The Seaforth Highlanders had a counterpart in The Seaforth Highlanders of Canada in Vancouver. The Gordon Highlanders used to have a counterpart in the 50th Regiment (Gordon Highlanders of Canada) but they were amalgamated to become The Canadian Scottish Regiment after WW I. The Canadian Scottish are affiliated with The Royal Scots. The London Scottish Regiment has a counterpart in The Toronto Scottish Regiment (now known as The Toronto Scottish Regiment (Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother's Own) - try fitting THAT on a shoulder title). The KOSB and Cameronians don't appear to have any direct affiliations anymore; Cameronians used to be tied with the Perth Regiment which no longer exists. The KOSBs have ties to the Royal New Brunswick Regiment (in WW II known as the Carleton and York Regiment) but not to any "Scottish" unit. Canada doesn't seem to have had any "Border" regiments, even given US excursions in 1812 and 1866-1870. This leaves over a lot of other regiments that simply started their own traditions - the 48th Highlanders of Canada (who are nonetheless allied with the Gordons, who no longer exist), the Essex Scottish (later amalgamated with the Kent Regiment) who have several alliances but none with a Scottish or Highland regiment. All this info is available at www.regiments.org Be careful to note, too, the difference between Scottish and Highland Regiments. Lowland Scots wore tartan pants (trews), Highlanders wore kilts and that tradition has affected the dress regulations, though oddly enough the Canadian Scottish and Toronto Scottish and Essex Scottish have all worn kilts instead of trews. The Scots Fusiliers of Canada did wear trews, I believe, as did the Allied regiment, the Royal Scots Fusiliers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Originally posted by Panther Commander: I've seen for the Pzkw IV A-D either 'stump' or 'stubbie' something like that.I think that was a nickname for the main gun, rather than the tank itself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Originally posted by Martyr: The names of British regiments I can handle; it's the *numbers* I can't! What the numbers mean depends entirely on what kind of regiment or battalion we're talking about. However, first to correct a terminological inexactitude that I'm sure will cause Martyr much suffering, to wit, the British Army's use of the term "regiment"... Originally posted by Martyr: And why are the 2 North Hobbiton Slingshotters in the same bloody regiment with the 174 Cowtown Irregulars while the 4/17 North Hobbiton are way over in another division with the 42 Captain Jinx Horse Marines and the 5/12.5 Douglas Adams Mostly Harmlesses? I think what you mean here is not regiment, but brigade. In most armies, very sensibly, a regiment (APP-6A size symbol: three sticks) is a formation composed of three battalion-sized units (APP-6A size symbol: two sticks). This is never what "regiment" means in Britspeak. A formation composed of three bn-sized units is a brigade (APP-6A size symbol: one cross). "Regiment" may mean any of the following things: 1. An infantry regiment, a traditional organisation having one or more numbered battalions, sometimes many more -- IIRC the Royal Welch Fusiliers (yes, the spelling of "Welsh" was a regimental tradition) raised something like 29 battalions during WW1. 2. A cavalry regiment, an artillery regiment, or a regiment of any corps using cavalry organisational terms (the Reconnaissance Corps in late WW2, the Royal Engineers when supporting armoured divisions) is a functional unit of battalion size. 3. The Royal Regiment of Artillery is a traditional organisation, being the whole of the British Army's artillery. Now the numbers... For the cavalry, the number is just the sequence number in which the regiment was originally raised. Where a slashed number appears, it indicates a regimental amalgamation during the 1920-22 reorganization of the Army. Normnally amalgamation was between regiments of similar nominal types, although 17th/21st Lancers was formed from the 17th (Duke of Cambridge's Own) Lancers and the 21st Hussars. The Life Guards do not use a slashed number, but were formed by the amalgamation of 1st Life Guards and 2nd Life Guards. I believe that the following is a relatively complete list of the regular cavalry regiments of the British Army during WW2: Life Guards (1st and 2nd) Royal Horse Guards (The Blues) 1st Royal Dragoons 1st (King’s) Dragoon Guards Queen’s Bays (2nd Dragoon Guards) 3rd/6th Dragoon Guards Royal Scots Greys (2nd Dragoons) 4th/7th Dragoon Guards 5th/6th Dragoons 3rd King’s Own Hussars 7th Queen’s Own Hussars 4th Queen’s Own Hussars 8th King’s Royal Irish Hussars 9th Queen’s Royal Lancers 12th Royal Lancers (Prince of Wales’s) 10th Royal Hussars (Prince of Wales’s Own) 11th Hussars (Prince Albert’s Own) 14th/20th Hussars 13th/18th Hussars 15th/19th Hussars 16th/5th Lancers 17th/21st Lancers The reserve cavalry (yeomanry) was different again, and there might be several sabre regiments raised from the same yeomanry regiment -- for example, Ken Tout (author of "Tank", Tanks, Advance" and others) served in 1st Northants Yeomanry, Keith Jones ("64 days of a Normandy summer") with 2 NY, which was eventually broken up to provide reinforcements for 1 NY. At least one slashed number in the Yeomanry is due to amalgamation, as 3/4th CLY were fromed by amalgamation of the 3rd and 4th regiments of that regiment. For the infantry, things are different. Just because I know you'd love to have one, here is what I believe to be a reasonably complete list of the regular infantry regiments of the British Army as they were from 1881 to 1958: Grenadier Guards Coldstream Guards Scots Guards Irish Guards Welsh Guards Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment) Queen’s (Royal West Surrey Regiment ) East Surrey Regiment Buffs (East Kent Regiment) Queen’s Own (Royal West Kent Regiment) Royal Sussex Regiment Duke of Cambridge’s Own (Middlesex Regiment) Hampshire Regiment King’s Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) Border Regiment Northumberland Fusiliers Royal Warwickshire Regiment Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment) Lancashire Fusiliers King’s (Liverpool Regiment) Manchester Regiment Norfolk Regiment Suffolk Regiment Lincolnshire Regiment Northamptonshire Regiment Bedfordshire Regiment Essex Regiment Leicestershire Regiment Devonshire Regiment Dorset Regiment Prince Albert’s (Somerset Light Infantry) Duke of Cornwall’s Light Infantry King’s Light Infantry (Shropshire Regiment) King’s Own Light Infantry (South Yorkshire Regiment) Durham Light Infantry Prince of Wales’s Own (West Yorkshire Regiment) East Yorkshire Regiment Princess of Wales’s Own (Yorkshire Regiment) Royal Scots Fusiliers Highland Light Infantry Cheshire Regiment Royal Welsh Fusiliers South Wales Borderers Welsh Regiment King’s Own Borderers Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers Royal Irish Rifles Princess Victoria’s (Royal Irish Fusiliers) Gloucestershire Regiment Princess Charlotte of Wales’s (Berkshire Regiment) Duke of Edinburgh’s (Wiltshire Regiment) Worcestershire Regiment Sherwood Foresters (Derbyshire) Regiment East Lancashire Regiment Prince of Wales’s Volunteers (South Lancashire Regiment) Loyal North Lancashire Regiment Duke of Wellington’s Regiment (West Riding Regiment) South Staffordshire Regiment Prince of Wales’s (North Staffordshire Regiment) Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) Oxfordshire Light Infantry King’s Royal Rifle Corps Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort’s Own) Seaforth Highlanders (Ross-shire Buffs, Duke of Albany’s) Queen’s Own Cameron Highlanders Gordon Highlanders Princess Louise’s (Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders) Royal Irish Regiment Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) York and Lancaster Regiment The Parachute Regiment and the Glider Pilot Regiment were both raised during WW2, as were the Commandos, and the following Irish regiments were disbanded in the 1922 reorganization: Connaught Rangers Prince of Wales’ Leinster Regiment (Royal Canadians) Royal Munster Fusiliers Royal Dublin Fusiliers Now, you will notice that there are no numbers to be seen anywhere in this naming scheme. Prior to 1881, all regiments were numbered, and since 1958 some of the pre-1881 numbers have been creeping back in to regimental names, as for example the Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Regiment (29th/45th Foot). Numbers also crop up in foreign armies using a British-style regimental system, for example various numbers of Gurkha Rifles and Royal Australian Rifles, the "Vandoos", and so on. But for regular British infantry during WW2, the number you see is the battalion number. Where there is a slashed number, this indicates a territorial battalion. The Territorial Army was "doubled" before the outbreak of WW2, and so, for example, the territorial battalions of the Queen's Regiment (5th, 6th and 7th) became 1/5th and 2/5th, and so forth. Now, of course, this is all far too easy to understand, and so people liked to have a few more ways of confusing people. One good way is to call the same regiment by different names. You've already seen that many of the regiments include official alternative names (in parentheses) in their titles. However, people would also use unofficial names so widely that they became generally accepted. For example, it took me a while to realise when hunting through the war diaries for Villers-Bocage that "G" Battery 5 RHA always called themselves "Mercer's Troop". 3rd and 4th County of London Yeomanry called themselves the Sharpshooters, although, confusingly, IIRC other sabre regiments of CLY used different names. The regiments originally amalagamated to form the Cameronians(Scottish Rifles) never really got on with each other, and so the 1st battalion was always called the Cameronians, and the 2nd the Scottish Rifles. One of the terrotirial battalions of (IIRC) the York & Lancaster Regiment was called the Hallamshires, or for short the Hallams. On at least one occasion, the confusion caused was sufficient for an MP to arrest a soldier wearing a "Hallamshire" shoulder-flash as a fifth columnist, as any Englishman would know there is no such county. Another good method of maintaining confusion is to change units into completely different roles. So, for example, 109 RAC was formed by converting an infantry battalion (I believe of the King's Own). 4th Queen's were turned into an LAA regiment. The Guards Armoured Division was formed by converting foot guards to armour, and their war diaries and those of the Guards Tank Brigade still appear in the PRO indexed under "infantry". Now, if someone would like to clarify the situation regarding the Indian, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and South African armies, I'd be interested to know how much more complicated things could get... All the best, John. [Edited to correct blunder detected by someone mad enough to read the foregoing] [ May 22, 2004, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: John D Salt ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 The Canadian Regiments were mostly numbered up until 1921. Oddly, they were numbered as "Battalions" first, then redesignated "Regiments" in 1900. PERMANENT FORCE (Permanent Active Militia) The Royal Canadian Regiment of Infantry Redesignated The Royal Canadian Regiment 1 Nov 1901 MILITIA (Non-Permanent Active Militia) The Governor General's Foot Guards 1st Battalion Prince of Wales' Regiment Fusiliers Redesignated 1st Regiment Prince of Wales Fusiliers 8 May 1900 Redesignated 1st Regiment, The Grenadier Guards of Canada 15 Apr 1912 2nd Battalion, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada Redesignated 2nd Regiment, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 8 May 1900 3rd Battalion, Victoria Rifles of Canada Redesignated 3rd Regiment, Victoria Rifles of Canada 8 May 1900 4th Regiment, Chasseurs Canadiens authorized 1901 5th Battalion, Royal Scots of Canada Redesignated 5th Regiment, Royal Scots of Canada 8 May 1900 Redesignated 5th Regiment, Royal Scots of Canada, Highlanders 2 May 1904 Redesignated 5th Regiment, Royal Highlanders of Canada 1 Oct 1906 6th Battalion, Rifles Redesignated 6th Regiment, The Duke of Connaught's Own Rifles 8 May 1900 7th Battalion, Fusiliers Redesignated 7th Regiment, Fusiliers 8 May 1900 8th Battalion, Royal Rifles Redesignated 8th Regiment, Royal Rifles 8 May 1900 9th Battalion, Voltigeurs de Quebec Redesignated 9th Regiment, Voltigeurs de Quebec 8 May 1900 10th Battalion, Royal Grenadiers Redesignated 10th Regiment, Royal Grenadiers 8 May 1900 11th Battalion Volunteer Militia Infantry of Canada (Argenteuil Rangers) Disbanded 15 Apr 1912. 11th Regiment, Irish Fusiliers of Canada authorized 15 Aug 1913 12th Battalion of Infantry or York Rangers Redesignated 12th Regiment York Rangers 8 May 1900 13th Battalion Volunteer Militia (Infantry) Canada Redesignated 13th Regiment 8 May 1900 Redesignated 13th Royal Regiment 3 Jan 1910 14th Battalion, Princess of Wales' Own Rifles Redesignated 14th Regiment, Princess of Wales' Own Rifles 8 May 1900 15th Battalion, Argyll Light Infantry Redesignated 15th Regiment, Argyll Light Infantry 8 May 1900 16th Prince Edward Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 16th Prince Edward Regiment 8 May 1900 17th Regiment of Infantry authorized 1 Dec 1902 (18th Prescott Battalion of Infantry (disbanded?) 1892) 18th Saguenay Battalion of Infantry authorized 1 Feb 1900 Redesignated 18th Saguenay Regiment 8 May 1900 Redesignated 18th Regiment, Francs-Tireurs du Saguenay 1 Oct 1909 19th St. Catharine's Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 19th St. Catharine's Regiment 8 May 1900 Redesignated 19th Lincoln Regiment 2 Nov 1912 20th Halton Battalion, Lorne Rifles Redesignated 20th Halton Regiment , Lorne Rifles 8 May 1900 Redesignated 20th Regiment, Halton Rifles 1 Dec 1909 21st Battalion, Essex Fusiliers Redesignated 21st Regiment, Essex Fusiliers 8 May 1900 22nd Battalion The Oxford Rifles Redesignated 22nd Regiment The Oxford Rifles 8 May 1900 - (23rd Beauce Battalion of Infantry was amalgamated with the 92nd Battalion in 1899) 23rd Regiment, Northern Fusiliers authorized 1903 - (24th Kent Battalion of Infantry (disbanded?) in 1892) 24th Kent Regiment authorized 1 Jan 1901 25th Elgin Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 25th Elgin Regiment 8 May 1900 Disbanded 1 Aug 1903 Reorganized as 25th Regiment 17 May 1904 - 26th Regiment, Middlesex Light Infantry 27th Lambton Battalion of Infantry, St. Clair Borderers Redesignated 27th Lambton Regiment, St. Clair Borderers 8 May 1900 28th Perth Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 28th Perth Regiment 8 May 1900 29th Waterloo Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 29th Waterloo Regiment 8 May 1900 - 30th Regiment, Wellington Rifles 31st Grey Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 31st Grey Regiment 8 May 1900 - 32nd Bruce Regiment - 33rd Huron Regiment 34th Ontario Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 34th Ontario Regiment 8 May 1900 35th Battalion, The Simcoe Foresters Redesignated 35th Regiment, Simcoe Foresters 8 May 1900 36th Peel Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 36th Peel Regiment 8 May 1900 - 37th Regiment, Haldimand Rifles - 38th Regiment (Dufferin Rifles of Canada) - 39th Regiment (Norfolk Rifles) 40th Northumberland Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 40th Northumberland Regiment 8 May 1900 41st Brockville Battalion of Rifles Redesignated 41st Regiment, Brockville Rifles 8 May 1900 42nd Lanark and Renfrew Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 42nd Lanark and Renfrew Regiment 8 May 1900 43rd Ottawa and Carleton Battalion of Rifles Redesignated 43rd Ottawa and Carleton Rifles 8 May 1900 Redesignated 43rd Regiment (Duke of Cornwall's Own Rifles) 1 Mar 1902 44th Lincoln and Welland Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 44th Lincoln and Welland Regiment 8 May 1900 - 45th Victoria Regiment 46th East Durham Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 46th Durham Regiment 8 May 1900 - 47th Frontenac Regiment 48th Battalion (Highlanders) Redesignated 48th Regiment (Highlanders) 8 May 1900 49th Hastings Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 49th Regiment (Hastings Rifles) 8 May 1900 50th Battalion Huntington and Hemmingford Rangers Redesignated 50th Regiment, Huntington and Hemmingford Rangers 8 May 1900 Disbanded 1 Jul 1903 - 50th Regiment authorized 15 Aug 1913 - 51st Regiment (Soo Rifles) authorized 1913 52nd Brome Battalion of Light Infantry Redesignated 52nd Brome Regiment 8 May 1900 Disbanded 1 Jul 1903 (1,2,3,4 Companies transferred to 79th Shefford Regiment and renamed 79th Shefford and Brome Regiment) - 52nd Regiment (Prince Albert Volunteers) authorized 2 Jan 1913 53rd Sherbrooke Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 53rd Sherbrooke Regiment 8 May 1900 54th Richmond Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 54th Richmond Regiment 8 May 1900 Redesignated 11th Hussars 1 Aug 1903 - 54th Regiment, Carabiniers de Sherbrooke authorized 1 Apr 1910 55th (Battalion), Megantic Light Infantry Redesignated 55th Regiment Megantic Light Infantry 8 May 1900 Disbanded 3 Sep 1912 - 56th Grenville Regiment 57th Battalion of Infantry Peterborough Rangers Redesignated 57th Regiment Peterborough Rangers 8 May 1900 54th Compton Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 54th Compton Regiment 8 May 1900 Redesignated as 7th Hussars 1 May 1903 - 58th Westmount Rifles authorized 2 Nov 1914 59th Stormont and Glengarry Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 59th Stormont and Glengarry Regiment 8 May 1900 - (60th Missisquoi Battalion of Infantry (disbanded 1898) 60th Rifles of Canada authorized 2 Jan 1913 61st Montmagny and L'Islet Battalion Redesignated 61st Montmagny and L'Islet Regiment 8 May 1900 62nd Battalion St. John Fusiliers Redesignated 62nd Regiment, St. John Fusiliers 8 May 1900 63rd The Halifax Battalion of Rifles Redesignated 63rd Regiment (Halifax Rifles) 8 May 1900 64th Voltigeurs de Beauharnois Redesignated 64th Regiment Voltigeurs de Beauharnois 8 May 1900 Amalgamated (with 76th Regiment) and redesignated 64th Regiment of Rifles Voltigeurs de Chateauguay 1 May 1901 Redesignated 64th Chateauguay and Beauharnois Regiment 1 Mar 1902 65th Battalion, Mount Royal Rifles Redesignated 65th Regiment Mount Royal Rifles 8 May 1900 Redesignated 65th Regiment (Carabiniers Mont-Royal) 1902 66th Battalion (Princess Louise Fusiliers) Redesignated 66th Regiment (Princess Louise Fusiliers) 8 May 1900 67th Battalion, The Carleton Light Infantry Redesignated 67th Regiment, The Carleton Light Infantry 8 May 1900 68th King's County Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 68th King's County Regiment 8 May 1900 Disbanded 1 Jun 1912 - 68th Earl Grey's Own Rifles authorized 1914 81st Hants Regiment redesignated 68th Regiment 1 May 1914 69th 1st Annapolis Battalion of Infantry Amalgamated with 72nd 2nd Annapolis Battalion of Infantry and redesignated 69th Annapolis Regiment 8 May 1900 70th Champlain Battalion of Infantry Disbanded 1 Feb 1900 71st (York) Volunteer Battalion Redesignated 71st York Regiment 8 May 1900 72nd 2nd Annapolis Battalion of Infantry Amalgamated with 69th 1st Annapolis Battalion of Infantry 8 May 1900 - 72nd Highlanders of Canada authorized 24 Nov 1910 Redesignated The 72nd Seaforth Highlanders of Canada 15 Apr 1912 Redesignated The 72nd Regiment Seaforth Highlanders of Canada 16 Dec 1912 73rd Northumblerland N. B. Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 73rd Northumberland Regiment 8 May 1900 74th Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 74th Regiment 8 May 1900 Redesignated 74th Regiment (New Brunswick Rangers) 2 May 1903 75th Lunenburg Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 75th Lunenburg Regiment 8 May 1900 76th Battalion of Rifles or Voltigeurs de Chaeauguay Redesignated 76th Regiment Voltigeurs de Chateauguay 8 May 1900 Amalgamated with 64th Regiment on 1 May 1901 - 76th Colchester and Hants Rifles authorized 1 Apr 1910 Redesignated 76th Colchester and Hants Rifles 2 May 1910. 77th Wentworth Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 77th Wentworth Regiment 8 May 1900 78th Colchester, Hants and Pictou Battalion of Infantry or Highlanders Redesignated 78th Colchester, Hants and Pictou Regiment 8 May 1900 Redesignated 78th Regiment, Pictou Highlanders 1 Mar 1910 - 79th Shefford Regiment redesignated 79th Sheffor and Brome Regiment 1 May 1903 Converted to cavalry and redesignated 13th Scottish Light Dragoons 1 Feb 1904 79th Highlanders of Canada authorized 1 Feb 1910 Redesignated 79th Cameron Highlanders of Canada 1 Apr 1910 - 80th Nicolet Regiment 81st Portneuf Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 81st Portneuf Regiment 8 May 1900 Disbanded 1 May 1901 81st Hants Regiment authorized 16 Feb 1914 Redesignated 64th Regiment 1 May 1914 82nd Queen's County Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 82nd Queen's County Regiment 8 May 1900 Redesignated 82nd Abegweit Light Infantry 1906 83rd Joliette Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 83rd Joliette Regiment 8 May 1900 84th St. Hyacinthe Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 84th St. Hyacinthe Regiment 8 May 1900 85th Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 85th Regiment 8 May 1900 86th Three Rivers Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 86th Three Rivers Regiment 8 May 1900 87th Quebec Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 87th Quebec Regiment 8 May 1900 88th Kamouraska and Charlevoix Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 88th Regiment 8 May 1900 Disbanded 1 May 1901 - 88th Regiment (Victoria Fusiliers) authorized 3 Sep 1912 89th Temiscouata and Rimouski Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 89th Temiscouata and Rimouski Regiment 8 May 1900 90th Winnipeg Battalion of Rifles Redesignated 90th Regiment Winnipeg Rifles 8 May 1900 - (91st Winnipeg Light Infantry Battalion (disbanded?) 1888) 91st Highlanders authorized 1 Sep 1903 Redesignated 91st Regiment (Canadian Highlanders) 2 Jul 1904 92nd Dorchester Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 92nd Dorchester Regiment 8 May 1900 93rd Cumberland Battalion of Infantry Redesignated 93rd Cumberland Regiment 8 May 1900 94th Victoria Battalion of Infantry, Argyll Highlanders Redesignated 94th Victoria Regiment Argyll Highlanders 8 May 1900 - 95th Regiment authorized 3 Jul 1905 Redesignated 95th Saskatchewan Rifles 1 Jun 1909 Split in two 1 Apr 1912 - one unit became 95th Regiment other became 105th Regiment. Redesignated back to 95th Regiment Saskatchewan Rifles Sep 1913 - 96th The Lake Superior Regiment reactived 1904 from disbanded regiment in existence 1886-1896 (96th District of Algoma Battalion of Rifles) - 97th Regiment authorized 1900 Redesignated 97th Regiment (Algonquin Rifles) 1 Jun 1903 - 98th Regiment authorized 1908 - 99th Regiment authorized 1908 Redesignated 99th Regiment of Rifles 1910 Redesignateed 99th Manitoba Rangers 1911 - 100th Regiment authorized 1 Apr 1908 Redesignated 100th Regiment Winnipeg Grenadiers 2 May 1910 - 101st Regiment authorized 1 Apr 1908 Redesignated 101st Regiment (Edmonton Fusiliers) 1 Mar 1909 - 102nd Regiment authorized 1 Apr 1908 Redesignated 102nd Regiment, Rocky Mountain Rangers 1 Jun 1909 - 103rd Regiment (Calgary Rifles) authorized 1 Apr 1910 - 104th Regiment authorized 1 Apr 1910 Redesignated 104th Regiment (Westminster Fusiliers)15 Dec 1913 - 105th Regiment authorized 1 Apr 1912 (reorganized from 95th Regiment) Redesignated 105th Regiment Fusiliers 16 Sep 1912 - 106th Regiment, Winnipeg Light Infantry authorized 1 Apr 1912 The Dawson Rifles authorized 1 Jul 1900 The Kootenay Rifles authorized 1905 Disbanded 1912 ****************************************************************************** Oddly enough, during the Great War, NONE of these Regiments mobilized, and instead Canada created numbered battalions of no specific regiment to fight in France and Flanders. Over 200 seperate battalions were raised, and four divisions fought with a fifth division broken up for reinforcements. Most of these battalions were disbanded to reinforce the others. Some took their traditions from the numbered regiments - or more than one. This led to the system of perpetuations after World War One and the 1921 reorganization of the Militia. In 1921 the Great War, we abolished all the numbers and completely reorganized. My own Regiment went from being a Rifle Regiment known as the 103rd Regiment (Calgary Rifles) to being reorganized as a two battalion unit called simply The Calgary Regiment. The 1st Battalion was redesignated 1st Battalion, The Calgary Regiment, Calgary Highlanders, and eventually just "The Calgary Highlanders." The 2nd Battalion became The Calgary Regiment, then The Calgary Regiment (Tank), then after the war The King's Own Calgary Regiment (Royal Canadian Armoured Corps). Despite being the 2nd Battalion of the Calgary Regiment, they have seniority to the Calgary Highlanders because they belong to the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps. Can't think of any British regiments that have ever spawned such a situation. [ May 22, 2004, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Well, I for one am glad to hear that they're finally going metric. John, thanks for the wealth of information! Your post is definitely a keeper, as (despite the flippant tone of my own) I'm actually interested in these things. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
With Clusters Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 My head hurts :confused: Good to know at least one English MP was as confused by all this as me... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
With Clusters Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 OK, I know squat. How were these myriads of units organized into larger elements (divisions, especially)? On a sort of ad-hoc basis? This seems a sort of bottom up organization, as opposed to top down (as done by other countries? - yeah, not a grog at all, but very much interested in the history). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Originally posted by John D Salt: The reserve cavalry (yeomanry) was different again, and there might be several sabre regiments raised from the same yeomanry regiment -- for example, Ken Tout (author of "Tank", Tanks, Advance" and others) served in 1st Fife & Forfar Yeomanry, Keith Jones ("64 days of a Normandy summer") with 2 FFY, which was eventually broken up to provide reinforcements for 1 FFY.John If I am not as vastly mistaken as the man who believes salmon are marsupials who live in trees and eat pencils, then both Tout and Jones were in the Northants Yeo, not the FFY. The numbers appear correct though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Originally posted by Andreas: If I am not as vastly mistaken as the man who believes salmon are marsupials who live in trees and eat pencils, then both Tout and Jones were in the Northants Yeo, not the FFY. The numbers appear correct though. You are hugely, colossally and perfectly right, and I am more egregeously in error than a man who believes that Ivor Novello is still alive. My apologies to Dr. Tout, Mr. Jones, the Yeomanries of Northamptonshire, Fife and Forfar severally and collectively, and to all members of the forum who I have by this error disoriented more than was strictly necessary. Please do not sue me. All the best, John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Originally posted by With Clusters: OK, I know squat. How were these myriads of units organized into larger elements (divisions, especially)? On a sort of ad-hoc basis? This seems a sort of bottom up organization, as opposed to top down (as done by other countries? - yeah, not a grog at all, but very much interested in the history). Just like everywhere else. You take three battalions and a brigade staff, and hey presto, you have a brigade. Take three of those, throw in some RA, REME, RASC, Recce Corps, etc. pp, and a divisional staff, and you have a division. Most divisions were based on regions, e.g. the 43rd on Wessex (ye olde English kingdom), 49th on the West Riding, 50th on Northumbria, 52nd on the lowlands, 53rd on Wales, etc. But this was not always adhered to, so you could find any sort of funny combination in the 78th Division (e.g. 36th Brigade with two south coast battalions, 5th Royal East Kents, and 6th Queens, and then a Scottish battalion 8th Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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