throwdjohn Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 how would the enemy being closer help his chances of dying with pellets in his ass? does the shotgun not work best at close ranges? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throwdjohn Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 how would the enemy being closer help his chances of dying with pellets in his ass? does the shotgun not work best at close ranges? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Originally posted by throwdjohn: i might be mistaken as i am certainly no grog, but i recall a "tales of the gun" or similar show on history channel on guns of the pacific theatre, and it distincly mentioned the use of pump action shotguns. Also, is the US required to follow geneva conventions even if their enemy does not? i am referring to armed medics, i mean japanese and VC both shot at medics, were they justified in carrying weapons for protection? Were the Japanese or the Viet Cong signatories to the Geneva Convention? If not, then how could they claim to be aggrieved by their enemies using shotguns? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Originally posted by throwdjohn: i might be mistaken as i am certainly no grog, but i recall a "tales of the gun" or similar show on history channel on guns of the pacific theatre, and it distincly mentioned the use of pump action shotguns. Also, is the US required to follow geneva conventions even if their enemy does not? i am referring to armed medics, i mean japanese and VC both shot at medics, were they justified in carrying weapons for protection? Were the Japanese or the Viet Cong signatories to the Geneva Convention? If not, then how could they claim to be aggrieved by their enemies using shotguns? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aco4bn187inf Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 I read somewhere that shotguns were preferred as a trench-clearing weapon, especially with a 'duckbill' attachment on the muzzle which would limit the spread of shot mostly to a horizontal plane. I think that was about US troops in vietnam. Sounds like a useful part of a squad's weapons mix for any close range fighting. I think also in Jame's Jones' "The Thin Red Line", one of the GI's uses a shotgun. That was based on Jones' experience on Guadalcanal. Has anyone ever heard of a serious attempt to prosecute a soldier for using a .50 cal against personnel? Didn't Audie Murphy even get a Medal of Honor for firing a .50 at German troops? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aco4bn187inf Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 I read somewhere that shotguns were preferred as a trench-clearing weapon, especially with a 'duckbill' attachment on the muzzle which would limit the spread of shot mostly to a horizontal plane. I think that was about US troops in vietnam. Sounds like a useful part of a squad's weapons mix for any close range fighting. I think also in Jame's Jones' "The Thin Red Line", one of the GI's uses a shotgun. That was based on Jones' experience on Guadalcanal. Has anyone ever heard of a serious attempt to prosecute a soldier for using a .50 cal against personnel? Didn't Audie Murphy even get a Medal of Honor for firing a .50 at German troops? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leakyD Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Didn't Audie Murphy even get a Medal of Honor for firing a .50 at German troops? [/QB]Different war, different times...and different social (national?) acceptance of the conflict. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leakyD Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Didn't Audie Murphy even get a Medal of Honor for firing a .50 at German troops? [/QB]Different war, different times...and different social (national?) acceptance of the conflict. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Originally posted by aco4bn187inf: Has anyone ever heard of a serious attempt to prosecute a soldier for using a .50 cal against personnel? Didn't Audie Murphy even get a Medal of Honor for firing a .50 at German troops? More urban myth, IIRC. Nothing prohibits you from using a .50 against troops. The .50 isn't an optimal weapon against troops in any event; its use on AFVs was intended mainly for anti-aircraft purposes. Audie definitely used it to good advantage, but he also had a radio and on-call artillery at his disposal.... Having said that, I am indeed aware of the ground mount for the .50, and they were used to good effect in Korea, both vehicle and ground mounted. The M16 halftrack needs no introduction to this bunch either...but I thought we had an earlier discussion that debunked the whole "illegal" myth? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Originally posted by aco4bn187inf: Has anyone ever heard of a serious attempt to prosecute a soldier for using a .50 cal against personnel? Didn't Audie Murphy even get a Medal of Honor for firing a .50 at German troops? More urban myth, IIRC. Nothing prohibits you from using a .50 against troops. The .50 isn't an optimal weapon against troops in any event; its use on AFVs was intended mainly for anti-aircraft purposes. Audie definitely used it to good advantage, but he also had a radio and on-call artillery at his disposal.... Having said that, I am indeed aware of the ground mount for the .50, and they were used to good effect in Korea, both vehicle and ground mounted. The M16 halftrack needs no introduction to this bunch either...but I thought we had an earlier discussion that debunked the whole "illegal" myth? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thermopylae Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Whatever weapon US conventional forces use has been approved by a veritable horde of laywers. There is nothing that prohibits you from shooting people with a .50, or a breaching shotgun, and so forth. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thermopylae Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Whatever weapon US conventional forces use has been approved by a veritable horde of laywers. There is nothing that prohibits you from shooting people with a .50, or a breaching shotgun, and so forth. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throwdjohn Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 of course not. as americans, do we not have a right to possess weapons (nukes, chemical/biological) while condemming their use by others? by george, i think ya'll have got it. americans can use shotguns, but only us. whats that? .50 cal? no, thats unnaceptable canada. switzerland, put down that derned flamethrower! hey, austria, don't make me come back there. why i oughta...... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throwdjohn Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 of course not. as americans, do we not have a right to possess weapons (nukes, chemical/biological) while condemming their use by others? by george, i think ya'll have got it. americans can use shotguns, but only us. whats that? .50 cal? no, thats unnaceptable canada. switzerland, put down that derned flamethrower! hey, austria, don't make me come back there. why i oughta...... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrrich0000 Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh16-e.htm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrrich0000 Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh16-e.htm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoolaman Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 A bit of googling the other day revealed that the shotgun is not generally considered illegal under any convention of war. The germans protested against their use in WWI under a clause that included weapons designed to cause unneccesary suffering and injury, but the Americans just ignored them. They have been used in all conflicts since then, but are obviously suitable for only certain applications. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoolaman Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 A bit of googling the other day revealed that the shotgun is not generally considered illegal under any convention of war. The germans protested against their use in WWI under a clause that included weapons designed to cause unneccesary suffering and injury, but the Americans just ignored them. They have been used in all conflicts since then, but are obviously suitable for only certain applications. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 I seem to recall that my favorite U.S. Civil War cavalry commander once commented that a sawed off shotgun was the finest possible weapon for a cavalryman. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 I seem to recall that my favorite U.S. Civil War cavalry commander once commented that a sawed off shotgun was the finest possible weapon for a cavalryman. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Makes sense if you had to shoot while on horseback.... You need something that'll hit without delicate aiming. The speed of approach is already on the cavalryman's side. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Makes sense if you had to shoot while on horseback.... You need something that'll hit without delicate aiming. The speed of approach is already on the cavalryman's side. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 The only thing the G.C. states about prohibited weapons is that they must be officially issued and that they cannot be modified by the combatants. It is rediculous to claim that it is illegal to shoot a man with a .50 cal but it is ok to do so with anything bigger or smaller. One of the main reasons shotguns are not more widely used by the military is that they are too specialized. They are great in cqb but are of little use at normal combat ranges of 100 to 500 meters. You don't always have the option of carrying multiple weapons or of being able to go back and get the best one for the current situation. The assault rifle is a good jack of all trades and so is the most popular and widely issued firearm. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 The only thing the G.C. states about prohibited weapons is that they must be officially issued and that they cannot be modified by the combatants. It is rediculous to claim that it is illegal to shoot a man with a .50 cal but it is ok to do so with anything bigger or smaller. One of the main reasons shotguns are not more widely used by the military is that they are too specialized. They are great in cqb but are of little use at normal combat ranges of 100 to 500 meters. You don't always have the option of carrying multiple weapons or of being able to go back and get the best one for the current situation. The assault rifle is a good jack of all trades and so is the most popular and widely issued firearm. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRSutton Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 Originally posted by Hoolaman: Whether they are illegal and whether the US used them in vietnam are not neccesarily related issues . I thought I had seen footage of US troops in Iraq now with shotguns as well. I was pretty sure they were not used in WW2 due to treaty issues. But I am always willing to entertain the possibility that I am totally wrong! They were not common but shotguns were used in the Pacific. Just like in Vietnam it was discovered that they were well suited to Jungle combat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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