Who can read German WWII military map symbols?

[Bil Hardenberger]

Originally posted by Hans:

The links were useful, thanks. Seems we have symbols for Hvy MGs in position and (6??) light infantry guns also in position.

I believe that would be 9 guns. 2 HMG's at each of those positions.

The rectangles may mean transport columns but the litle dangly part didn't show up on any of the sites I've seen.

The "dangly part" indicates a mortar (it is upside down)... you have a heavy mortar (on the right) and a mortar platoon on the right has 2 tubes. I would assume the mortar Platoon (left) has only one weapon.

The thermometer with dots I believe is a mortar.

As indicated above, that is a single MG in position. A vertical line with dots on each side is the symbol for an MG. The additional symbols on the bottom indicate weight, transport type, or other data.

edit: after looking at this again, I think what we have is an LMG taken from an Infantry Squad. The dot normally represents a single infantryman, in this case, the dot combined with the MG symbol would indicate a single LMG normally inherent to an Infantry squad.

I think the French are outnumbered in this one!

You are right about that

Bil

[ February 19, 2004, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: Bil Hardenberger ]

[Hans]

Thanks Bill, odd that the Germans wrote the symbols upside down the convention for NATO was to write them right side up but show the position in the right orientation.

Michael, Stonne....maybe its a bit too BIG, I think I'll try a smaller action, historical or fictional... and see how annoying it is to use US and Brit tanks for the French gentlemen. Also Stonne has been done many times, I tend to avoid the well known and over done themes.

In the past I've found that complete substitution works well (using one nationality to completely replace another) using a hodgepodge sometime looks and plays a bit weird.

Found (and lost) a nice mention on the web of a platoon of 8 Belgian tanks that fought in the 1940 campaign as a "fire platoon", 4 were "got" by 37mm Paks, 2 by bogs and 2 survived!

That would make a good scenario I think - we got any Belgians history Grogs around??

[Hans]

Thanks Bill, odd that the Germans wrote the symbols upside down the convention for NATO was to write them right side up but show the position in the right orientation.

Michael, Stonne....maybe its a bit too BIG, I think I'll try a smaller action, historical or fictional... and see how annoying it is to use US and Brit tanks for the French gentlemen. Also Stonne has been done many times, I tend to avoid the well known and over done themes.

In the past I've found that complete substitution works well (using one nationality to completely replace another) using a hodgepodge sometime looks and plays a bit weird.

Found (and lost) a nice mention on the web of a platoon of 8 Belgian tanks that fought in the 1940 campaign as a "fire platoon", 4 were "got" by 37mm Paks, 2 by bogs and 2 survived!

That would make a good scenario I think - we got any Belgians history Grogs around??

[Kapitein KAB]

After reviewing the first link that was given in this thread I would like to add (correct?) the following:

The extra "v" on top of the first "HMG" seems to denote anti-armor capability, which suggest to me that it probably is a 20mm cannon (2 cannons).

Also the "thermometer with dots" is not an LMG because of the dot. The dot here does not stand for a single rifleman (LMG's had a 2 man crew in the German army), if it was a single LMG, it would have been like the HMG without the "v" on top of it. The dot seems to refer to some kind of indirect fire capability (Howitzer), which seems strange regarding the 2 dots on the side, that apparantely refer to automatic fire. Maybe the "thermometer with dots" is a Nebelwerfer? My best guess is that it is a light mortar though.

If the dot actually is a circle than it would have been an AA machinegun, but the crispness of the picture seems to make that unlikely.

The "mortar" on the right of the picture is on a double line, which seems to indicate a column. Maybe these are mortars that are supposed to follow the infantry to set up a new fire position?

It also seems that being home sick gives me too much time to read these threads and related links!

regards from Holland :cool:

[Kapitein KAB]

After reviewing the first link that was given in this thread I would like to add (correct?) the following:

The extra "v" on top of the first "HMG" seems to denote anti-armor capability, which suggest to me that it probably is a 20mm cannon (2 cannons).

Also the "thermometer with dots" is not an LMG because of the dot. The dot here does not stand for a single rifleman (LMG's had a 2 man crew in the German army), if it was a single LMG, it would have been like the HMG without the "v" on top of it. The dot seems to refer to some kind of indirect fire capability (Howitzer), which seems strange regarding the 2 dots on the side, that apparantely refer to automatic fire. Maybe the "thermometer with dots" is a Nebelwerfer? My best guess is that it is a light mortar though.

If the dot actually is a circle than it would have been an AA machinegun, but the crispness of the picture seems to make that unlikely.

The "mortar" on the right of the picture is on a double line, which seems to indicate a column. Maybe these are mortars that are supposed to follow the infantry to set up a new fire position?

It also seems that being home sick gives me too much time to read these threads and related links!

regards from Holland :cool:

[Michael Dorosh]

I wonder, then, if they Y with 2 indicates a 2cm FlaK gun, with the double-Y indicating a quadruple 2cm mount? As opposed to the 3.7cm mount (hence the need to differentiate)?

[Michael Dorosh]

I wonder, then, if they Y with 2 indicates a 2cm FlaK gun, with the double-Y indicating a quadruple 2cm mount? As opposed to the 3.7cm mount (hence the need to differentiate)?

[Bil Hardenberger]

No, those are definitely MG's. Take a look at this graphic:

graphic

You can see that the V on the bottom does denote that it is a heavy MG. I might be mistaken about the MG with the dot on the bottom, but seeing as it does not have a number on it it is a single weapon.

The numbers on these symbols will not denote the type of weapon, but the number of weapons in that unit.

The extra line under the right most mortar unit makes it a heavy mortar, not a column. This is the symbol for mortar as can also be seen in the graphic above.

Bil

[ February 19, 2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Bil Hardenberger ]

[Bil Hardenberger]

No, those are definitely MG's. Take a look at this graphic:

graphic

You can see that the V on the bottom does denote that it is a heavy MG. I might be mistaken about the MG with the dot on the bottom, but seeing as it does not have a number on it it is a single weapon.

The numbers on these symbols will not denote the type of weapon, but the number of weapons in that unit.

The extra line under the right most mortar unit makes it a heavy mortar, not a column. This is the symbol for mortar as can also be seen in the graphic above.

Bil

[ February 19, 2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Bil Hardenberger ]

[Kitty]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Oh hush, now, child! How's your mother?

Hehe. A little better, thanks. =)

K

[Kitty]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Oh hush, now, child! How's your mother?

Hehe. A little better, thanks. =)

K

[Kapitein KAB]

****I might be mistaken about the MG with the dot on the bottom, but seeing as it does not have a number on it it is a single weapon****

I also still don't know yet what kind a auto-weapon this is, in the document that u refer to the dot only shows up when dealing with indirect-fire weapons, the howitzers. I also think it is a single weapon, defintely no LMG though (see bottom of my post). Anyone know the symbol of the nebelwerfer?

BTW; i am new to posting here, I usually just read; how do you do this Quoting? makes the posts much better readable

*** I wonder, then, if they Y with 2 indicates a 2cm FlaK gun, with the double-Y indicating a quadruple 2cm mount? As opposed to the 3.7cm mount (hence the need to differentiate)?***

The Y with 2 doesn't mean 2cm FlAK (Flieger Abwehr Kanone)

All the machineguns in Wehrmacht 1940 are MG34 right? This means LMG as well as HMG. HMG means that it has a tripod and a bigger crew with a spotter and a few guys carrying barrels and AMMO. The 2 above the symbol just means two weapons. (didn't know btw that the common deployment of HMG's was in pairs! why?)

The rate of fire of the MG34 and the MG42 made that it could only be operated as an HMG if the supply of ammo was ample. Also after periods of cyclic the barrel had to be replaced (or else it will weld together!).

German MG's in the LMG role, mean the same weapon but sacrificing firepower for mobility and versatility. The HMG role is best for defending positions and suppressing defenders from larger range. LMG role is for assault and infiltration purposes. At least that is my educated guess.

The double v makes me think that we are dealing with a 20mm gun with some AP ability

In the picture that Hans shows us, the attacking platoons will defintely bring their own MG34's , because, as you all know, you have to lay down lead whilst attacking, otherwise the other guy will fire back!

Reading from Hans' Map, the Germans are committing a full INF battalion here with 3 INF companies in the attack, my guess is that they bring around 15 to 25 MG34's with them (don't know frequency of MG34 per platoon in 1940)?

So the thermometer with dots can't be an MG34 in LMG role, it doesn't have significant firepower to justify it's own symbol on this battlemap. Think about MG34 in HMG role as current 5.56/7.62 minigun and MG34 in LMG role as current M60/FN MAG. The current FN minimi (you guys call it m249 SAW I believe) in my eyes is what the MG34 LMG role was supposed to be. The minimi is probably much more effective than the MG34 in LMG role (also MUCH better than BAR and Brengun) due to it's compactness rate of fire and 1 man crew with 600/800 rounds of ammo.

.........OMG I have too much time

cheers from holland

[Kapitein KAB]

****I might be mistaken about the MG with the dot on the bottom, but seeing as it does not have a number on it it is a single weapon****

I also still don't know yet what kind a auto-weapon this is, in the document that u refer to the dot only shows up when dealing with indirect-fire weapons, the howitzers. I also think it is a single weapon, defintely no LMG though (see bottom of my post). Anyone know the symbol of the nebelwerfer?

BTW; i am new to posting here, I usually just read; how do you do this Quoting? makes the posts much better readable

*** I wonder, then, if they Y with 2 indicates a 2cm FlaK gun, with the double-Y indicating a quadruple 2cm mount? As opposed to the 3.7cm mount (hence the need to differentiate)?***

The Y with 2 doesn't mean 2cm FlAK (Flieger Abwehr Kanone)

All the machineguns in Wehrmacht 1940 are MG34 right? This means LMG as well as HMG. HMG means that it has a tripod and a bigger crew with a spotter and a few guys carrying barrels and AMMO. The 2 above the symbol just means two weapons. (didn't know btw that the common deployment of HMG's was in pairs! why?)

The rate of fire of the MG34 and the MG42 made that it could only be operated as an HMG if the supply of ammo was ample. Also after periods of cyclic the barrel had to be replaced (or else it will weld together!).

German MG's in the LMG role, mean the same weapon but sacrificing firepower for mobility and versatility. The HMG role is best for defending positions and suppressing defenders from larger range. LMG role is for assault and infiltration purposes. At least that is my educated guess.

The double v makes me think that we are dealing with a 20mm gun with some AP ability

In the picture that Hans shows us, the attacking platoons will defintely bring their own MG34's , because, as you all know, you have to lay down lead whilst attacking, otherwise the other guy will fire back!

Reading from Hans' Map, the Germans are committing a full INF battalion here with 3 INF companies in the attack, my guess is that they bring around 15 to 25 MG34's with them (don't know frequency of MG34 per platoon in 1940)?

So the thermometer with dots can't be an MG34 in LMG role, it doesn't have significant firepower to justify it's own symbol on this battlemap. Think about MG34 in HMG role as current 5.56/7.62 minigun and MG34 in LMG role as current M60/FN MAG. The current FN minimi (you guys call it m249 SAW I believe) in my eyes is what the MG34 LMG role was supposed to be. The minimi is probably much more effective than the MG34 in LMG role (also MUCH better than BAR and Brengun) due to it's compactness rate of fire and 1 man crew with 600/800 rounds of ammo.

.........OMG I have too much time

cheers from holland

[JonS]

Looking only at the german symbols (I assume they are upside down to indicate orientation), they weapons systems I take to be dug in or otherwise emplaced (hence the cross bit at the bottom of each symbol.)

. below represents a small, solid circle.

* below represents a larger solid circle.

.

>- is an HMG (as already discussed). 2 guns each symbol.

.

.

>>- is an AT Gun I think, either 50mm or Czech 47mm. 2 guns. Note 1

.

.

*- is a light field howitzer battery. Note 1

.

-

|-- is an infantry gun company (prolly 75mm), 9 guns

-

Edit: Gah! Silly webformatting! The 'wheels' on each symbol above are supposed to be further to the right.

*+ I take to be a map symbol for a church, rather than a tac symbol for a medical unit.

I'm basing all this on some info that I got from http://freeport-tech.com/wwii/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_41.html about a year ago, but they seem to have since gone defunct. They in turn got their info from H.Dv. 272 - "Muster für taktische Zeichen des Heeres", dated 24.03.1941.

Copies available on request (email in profile).

Regards

JonS

Note 1: I'm assuming that the { . } in these symbols is a mistake, and is meant to be an { - }

[ February 19, 2004, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[JonS]

Looking only at the german symbols (I assume they are upside down to indicate orientation), they weapons systems I take to be dug in or otherwise emplaced (hence the cross bit at the bottom of each symbol.)

. below represents a small, solid circle.

* below represents a larger solid circle.

.

>- is an HMG (as already discussed). 2 guns each symbol.

.

.

>>- is an AT Gun I think, either 50mm or Czech 47mm. 2 guns. Note 1

.

.

*- is a light field howitzer battery. Note 1

.

-

|-- is an infantry gun company (prolly 75mm), 9 guns

-

Edit: Gah! Silly webformatting! The 'wheels' on each symbol above are supposed to be further to the right.

*+ I take to be a map symbol for a church, rather than a tac symbol for a medical unit.

I'm basing all this on some info that I got from http://freeport-tech.com/wwii/011_germany/symbols/_symbols_41.html about a year ago, but they seem to have since gone defunct. They in turn got their info from H.Dv. 272 - "Muster für taktische Zeichen des Heeres", dated 24.03.1941.

Copies available on request (email in profile).

Regards

JonS

Note 1: I'm assuming that the { . } in these symbols is a mistake, and is meant to be an { - }

[ February 19, 2004, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Kapitein KAB]

The germans sure love their old flak!!! hehehe

http://www.bmlv.gv.at/waffen/waf_fiak.shtml

[Kapitein KAB]

The germans sure love their old flak!!! hehehe

http://www.bmlv.gv.at/waffen/waf_fiak.shtml

[Hans]

So tell us, are you working on some 1940 goodness? Weren't you the one posting about what tanks to substitue for CharB, etc.?

We gonna see a nice Stonne scenario from you or somefink?

I have created a smaller test of whether using Brit tanks works as a subsitute for the actually French armour. A rough test version of, Small Operations, May 15, 1940 (test) is available. Its a two battle advance operation of Rommel's 7th PD running into the 1st DCR in the vicinity of Flavion-Rosee.

[Hans]

So tell us, are you working on some 1940 goodness? Weren't you the one posting about what tanks to substitue for CharB, etc.?

We gonna see a nice Stonne scenario from you or somefink?

I have created a smaller test of whether using Brit tanks works as a subsitute for the actually French armour. A rough test version of, Small Operations, May 15, 1940 (test) is available. Its a two battle advance operation of Rommel's 7th PD running into the 1st DCR in the vicinity of Flavion-Rosee.

[Andreas]

I had a look at my original copy of Greiner & Degener's 'Taktik im Rahmen des verstaerkten Infanteriebatallions' (6/7th Edition, Spring 1941), a training book for German officers.

Here is the result of checking the symbols on the map against the symbol table in the book.

I did that in MS Paint, so it sucks. I hope it is clear anyway. JonS is on the money with his suspicion that some of the points are not correct and should be lines.

[Andreas]

I had a look at my original copy of Greiner & Degener's 'Taktik im Rahmen des verstaerkten Infanteriebatallions' (6/7th Edition, Spring 1941), a training book for German officers.

Here is the result of checking the symbols on the map against the symbol table in the book.

I did that in MS Paint, so it sucks. I hope it is clear anyway. JonS is on the money with his suspicion that some of the points are not correct and should be lines.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Hans:

Thanks Bill, odd that the Germans wrote the symbols upside down the convention for NATO was to write them right side up but show the position in the right orientation.

Michael, Stonne....maybe its a bit too BIG, I think I'll try a smaller action, historical or fictional... and see how annoying it is to use US and Brit tanks for the French gentlemen. Also Stonne has been done many times, I tend to avoid the well known and over done themes.

In the past I've found that complete substitution works well (using one nationality to completely replace another) using a hodgepodge sometime looks and plays a bit weird.

Found (and lost) a nice mention on the web of a platoon of 8 Belgian tanks that fought in the 1940 campaign as a "fire platoon", 4 were "got" by 37mm Paks, 2 by bogs and 2 survived!

That would make a good scenario I think - we got any Belgians history Grogs around??

Coulda been anywhere... the Belgian.. err... tanks were split up among the infantry and cavalry divisions. I have some accounts of Belgian armor in action in the Ardennes. One interesting action (which I don't have a lot of detail on) has 3 company, 3ème Régiment de Chasseurs Ardennais holding off 7. Panzer for several hours

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Hans:

Thanks Bill, odd that the Germans wrote the symbols upside down the convention for NATO was to write them right side up but show the position in the right orientation.

Michael, Stonne....maybe its a bit too BIG, I think I'll try a smaller action, historical or fictional... and see how annoying it is to use US and Brit tanks for the French gentlemen. Also Stonne has been done many times, I tend to avoid the well known and over done themes.

In the past I've found that complete substitution works well (using one nationality to completely replace another) using a hodgepodge sometime looks and plays a bit weird.

Found (and lost) a nice mention on the web of a platoon of 8 Belgian tanks that fought in the 1940 campaign as a "fire platoon", 4 were "got" by 37mm Paks, 2 by bogs and 2 survived!

That would make a good scenario I think - we got any Belgians history Grogs around??

Coulda been anywhere... the Belgian.. err... tanks were split up among the infantry and cavalry divisions. I have some accounts of Belgian armor in action in the Ardennes. One interesting action (which I don't have a lot of detail on) has 3 company, 3ème Régiment de Chasseurs Ardennais holding off 7. Panzer for several hours