Andreas Posted March 16, 2005 Author Share Posted March 16, 2005 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas: So, since there is no real evidence that the 12cm GrW made it to battalions, let's put that to rest.Rumor time: I recall reading in a source I don't recall but tended to take as reliable that by Normandy the 120 had begun to replace the 81 in the heavy weapons companies. Now whether he meant in plain vanilla Heer battalions, SS, or FJ I do not know. I take it you are definitively gainsaying that? Michael </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Originally posted by Andreas: Dale, let me correct my statement slightly. What I am talking about is the TO&E of the regiment. Actual tactical control of the 120s could well have been with battalions in cases - especially in the east, where a regiment may have had a 10km frontage, it may have been better to split and give the 120s (or the IGs) to the two battalions, because they would not be able to cover the frontage from a central position anyway. So tactical control (and I presume that is what you are mostly interested in simulating with the miniatures) is different from TO&E and where the weapon sat in the overall structure. Well, in the game I'm thinking about, Spearhead, each stand represents a platoon. The listed full TO&E in the game for a vanilla 1944 German Heer Regiment has the following (each unit is a platoon): ------------------------ Regiment: 1 x Reg HQ, 1 x ATG, 1 x Inf gun, 1 x Pioneer Battalion (x3): 1 x Bn HQ 3 x Rfl companies -- 3 x Rfl platoon (wpns pltns subsumed) 1 x Wpn company -- 1 x MG platoon, 1 x 81mm mortar platoon, 1 x 120mm mortar platoon ---------------------- The game allows for attachment of regimental assets to battalions, so if I do what you suggested, i.e. change 3 120mm platoons to 1 platoon at regiment, I can still give 1 battalion the 120s and the other the IGs. Of course, with suitable range and LOS I can also keep them at Regiment and support each battalion as needed. I've learned to distrust the Spearhead TO&Es a little because they are based on Nafziger. I used to think Nafziger was "da bomb", but I've learned better. Still very useful for a "grog-light" like myself, but plenty of problems. -dale 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wartgamer Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 120mm FRAGs A neat website that calcs frags from different data. http://www.vy75.dial.pipex.com/toe.htm This Kursk website claims that Panzer and Panzergrenadier divisions had 120mm but infantry divisions did not. http://orbat.com/site/sturmvogel/mg.html The Germans also had independant MG and Mortar units. 120mm were found in some of these. schw. Granatwerfer-Batallion 18 10 May 43 raised at the Wandern Training Grounds, WK III, from elements of Gran.-Werfer-Btl. Afrika 1 and Glossner with three companies of 12cm mortars 4 Jul 43 XXXXVI Panzer Corps, 9th Army, Army Group Center 2 Jun 44 absorbed into 1st Ski-Jäger Division SE: Jun I 43, 1x 1-8 Mtr II 18 [ March 16, 2005, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Originally posted by Andreas: [snips] I am definitely saying that I have not seen reliable evidence that it did come down to battalion level as a TO&E item, but there is reliable evidence that it was at regimental level, where it would have made a lot more sense anyway, in terms of its performance (gives oomph at higher mobility with similar range compared to the sIG33, of which there were never enough to go round anyway) and transport requirements. ...and, hey, maybe they took the hint the Russian designers gave them when designating the weapon as a "regimental mortar". A quick trundle through Niklas Zetterling's "Normandy 1944" (J. J. Fedorowicz, Winnipeg, 2000), which seems to rely on Tessin a good deal, gives the following mentions that I could find of 12cm sGrW (and a pretty good match fro the stuff JasonC posted earlier): 9 in 13. Kompanie (s GrW) of Fallschirmjäger-Regiment 6 4 in HQ Kompanie of Sturm-Bataillon AOK 7 (Oooh! Look! A Sturm-Bataillon!) 32 in 363. Infanterie-Division 4 in 9. Panzer-Division 12 in 15. Kompanie of SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment "H" of 9. SS-Panzer-Division "Hohenstaufen" 32 "heavy mortars" (calibre unspecified) in 272. Infanterie-Division The case of 363 Inf Div seems interesting in that it was pretty much up to full strength, using the 1944 style orbat of 3 regiments each with 2 battalions (and 272 seems similar). Now, guessing wildly, and assuming that 8 of the 32 sGrW have been given to people like the recce or the engineers to play with, 8 12cm mortars seems an awful lot to saddle the 13th Companies with, given that they already have their full complement of sIGs and leIGs. So I wouldn't be at all surprised to see battalions sporting a foursome of 12cm mortars in their heavy companies under this organisation; but it is, as you say, not conclusive proof. All the best, John. [ March 16, 2005, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: John D Salt ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 16, 2005 Author Share Posted March 16, 2005 John Thanks for digging. The online database that JasonC referred to underlies the Zetterling book, I believe, so it is hardly surprising they match. Could those 'heavy mortars' in 272.ID also be of the 21m variety? But even if that was not so, they may also have kept them in a separate battalion, or divided into very strong 13. Kompanien, or God knows what. Interesting stuff. Sturmbatallione had all sorts of weird and wonderful TO&Es. I would not bat an eyelid if you mentioned a platoon of Tigers in their field kitchen detachment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Originally posted by Andreas: [snips] Thanks for digging. The online database that JasonC referred to underlies the Zetterling book, I believe, so it is hardly surprising they match. Ah, data incest, the short route to "independent" corroboration. Does this database have an URL? My google-fu does not appear strong enough to find it. Originally posted by Andreas: Could those 'heavy mortars' in 272.ID also be of the 21m variety? Crikey, I hope not!! Originally posted by Andreas: But even if that was not so, they may also have kept them in a separate battalion, or divided into very strong 13. Kompanien, or God knows what. Zetterling does say (page 252) that the infantry battalions in 272.ID were supposed to each have 54 MGs and 10 mortars, a snippet attributed by footnote to Anlage 1 in F.A. Schack, "Die Kämpfe der 272. Infanterie-Division in Nord-Frankreich vom 28.7 bis 28.8.44", MS # B-702 (whatever that means). It says this is a reprint of the wartime Gliederungsbild (which being unable to speak German I imagine means "graphical orbat"). Zetterling notes that each having the same kit strengths is "highly unlikely for a division engaged in combat", so this may be the authorised establishment rather than actual strengths. Annoyingly, there is no indication of what calibre the battalion mortars are, but as the total divisional strength of medium mortars is given as 54, at least some must be intended to be heavies, and it would fit the idea of 6 8cm GrW and 4 12cm GrW in the heavy companies. Again, the number of IGs given indicates that the 13th Companies had enough for full strength in both sIGs and leIGs. Still nothing conclusive, but I suspect that sometimes the Wehrmacht may have fielded organisations that matched the ones given in the "Hanbook of German Military Forces". They certainly seem to have fielded practically everything else. All the best, John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 16, 2005 Author Share Posted March 16, 2005 Ah yes, the famous 21m mortar... So, you never heard of it? Can there be any doubt that the Germans had the mortars? Anyway, I think you are probably right in your analysis. [speculation]The other possibility would be to give the IGs to the battalions, and keep the mortars at regimental level. The IGs have lower range, the IG18 at least are easier to move, and can also engage in direct fire, so they maybe more useful to a battalion than a 12cm GrW)[/speculation]. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Zetterlings Normandy Website. It appears to have been a development website used during the prep of his book. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 16, 2005 Author Share Posted March 16, 2005 Originally posted by John D Salt: Zetterling does say (page 252) that the infantry battalions in 272.ID were supposed to each have 54 MGs and 10 mortars, a snippet attributed by footnote to Anlage 1 in F.A. Schack, "Die Kämpfe der 272. Infanterie-Division in Nord-Frankreich vom 28.7 bis 28.8.44", MS # B-702 (whatever that means). It says this is a reprint of the wartime Gliederungsbild (which being unable to speak German I imagine means "graphical orbat"). Zetterling notes that each having the same kit strengths is "highly unlikely for a division engaged in combat", so this may be the authorised establishment rather than actual strengths. John A Gliederungsbild like the one below is giving you an idealised state of the divisional organisation at a certain point in time. It is not an official establishment, as anyone with a passing acquaintance will notice upon studying the one below. The official tables are the KStN (or however you capitalise it) that Dandelion referred to. This is a Gliederungsbild of 1. Gebirgsdivision during the Uman encirclement battle. It was drawn up by its 1a, who wrote three books about the battles of the Armeekorps to which it belonged at the time after the war. As you can see, the division organised itself in a way suited to a highly mobile pursuit battle. The Gliederungsbild shows this, but not the official organisation of the division. So the Gliederungsbild of 272.ID may well have shown an individual organisation adapted to the specific battle, but not authorised as permanent under KStN. And for David I: if you can understand the German in this table, you are all set for a massive research project on German combat organisation in WW 2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wartgamer Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Table of Organisation & Equipment Maschinengewehr-Kompanie, 1939 The fourth company in the infantry battalion was a support company, designated Maschinengewehr-Kompanie, with three heavy machine gun platoons and one heavy mortar platoon using 8 cm mortars. When the 12 cm mortar became available, the 8 cm mortar was officially redesignated a medium mortar (mGrW) and the fourth platoon of the MG-Kompanie was partially or fully re-equipped with the heavier 12 cm mortars. Maschinengewehr-Kompanie, 1939 Kompanieführer, company commander Kompanietrupp, company HQ section Kompanietruppführer, HQ section leader Beobachtungs-Unteroffizier, observer Richtkreis-Unteroffizier, range taker Richtkreis-Unteroffizier, range taker Melder, messenger Nachrichtenstaffel, communications section Fernsprechtrupp - wire communications group Funktrupp - radio communications group 1. schwerer Maschinengewehrzug, heavy machine gun platoon Zugführer, platoon commander 1. s.MG-Gruppe, HMG Section s.MG, heavy machine gun s.MG, heavy machine gun 2. s.MG-Gruppe, HMG Section s.MG, heavy machine gun s.MG, heavy machine gun 2. schwerer Maschinengewehrzug, as above 3. schwerer Maschinengewehrzug, as above 4. schwerer Granatwerferzug, mortar platoon Zugführer Zugtrupp, HQ Section 1. schwere Granatwerfergruppe s.GrW 8 cm, mortar s.GrW 8 cm, mortar 2. schwere Granatwerfergruppe, same as above 3. schwere Granatwerfergruppe, same as above Gefechtstross, field kitchen Kompaniefeldwebel (Spieß), Company Sergeant-Major Waffen- und Geräteunteroffizier, weapons and technical NCO Futtermeister, farrier Beschlagschmied, hoofer Feldküche, field kitchen Verpflegungstross, supply wagon Fourier-Unteroffizier Supply NCO Verpflegungstross I, supply wagon Verpflegungstross II, supply wagon Gepäcktross (mot.), baggage transport (motorized) Rechnungsführer, accountant Fahrer, driver Handwerker, craftsman Handwerker, craftsman Field kitchens were grouped at the battalion level, but detached companies took theirs with them. The Company Sergeant-Major normally remained with the field kitchens. Supply and baggage wagons were grouped at battalion, or the next level above it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wartgamer Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 A good photo showing the size of the weapon A German SP mortar? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David I Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 I was going to quietly drop out of this thread, but look at the size of those rounds next to the loader! Makes me shudder! It's a hell of an equalizer and I'm sure a welcome addition to any battalion/regiment/indepentant/ad'hoc formation that was lucky enough to get them. Talk about rare, check out the SP motar rig. Chassis any one? Nice pic's Wartgamer! DavidI 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wartgamer Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 The Soviet bomb was bigger. That SP may be a 80mm. Sort of a substitute for a 251 haltrack mortar I suspect. And I agree that the 120mm makes sense as a regt weapon just due to its range (as I said before, range defines a weapon system). But as German Battalions were asked to cover more frontage, they may indeed have been issued these weapons. I am still not sure they weren't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 17, 2005 Author Share Posted March 17, 2005 Originally posted by David I: I was going to quietly drop out of this thread, but look at the size of those rounds next to the loader! Makes me shudder! It's a hell of an equalizer and I'm sure a welcome addition to any battalion/regiment/indepentant/ad'hoc formation that was lucky enough to get them.Well, testament to its qualities as a weapon could be that it is still in service today with the Bundeswehr and presumably other armies as well. The Wehrmacht version was a straight copy of the Soviet design by the way, and both fired the same ammunition, either German produced, or captured. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Originally posted by Andreas: Well, testament to its qualities as a weapon could be that it is still in service today with the Bundeswehr and presumably other armies as well.The US Army began switching over from 4.2" to 120mm in its mechanized and armored divisions a few years ago. Not sure if it has completed the change yet. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: The US Army began switching over from 4.2" to 120mm in its mechanized and armored divisions a few years ago. Not sure if it has completed the change yet.The Infantry Mortar Leader's Course does not include instruction for the four-deuce anymore. But the manual still includes it. By now the 120 must have replaced the 4.2" in the active component. Some guard units might still have the old 4.2". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Andreas (or anybody else who can answer): That's a neat little document you posted there. I speak enough German to decipher the written words on the page (though a few of the abbreviations took me a minute or two), but the symbols are giving me trouble -- I know some of the basic German symbols, but not all of them. Does anybody have a link to a key that explains WWII-era German military unit map symbols? I think one was posted on the forum a while back, but I can't find it. Thanks, YD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wartgamer Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Both weapons could fire each others ammunition but they were not the same. The game even reflects this with the soviet weapon having a higher blast value. Barrel life on these weapons may have been fairly low. I read one site claiming only 3000 rounds! It would also depend on what charge the weapon is fired at. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wartgamer Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Getting back to the main thought of the thread... Are Heavy Weapon Company commanders the main personalities in the attack scheme? Do they develop the 'attack plan' around which a Battalion manuvers to get to its objectives? In the US infantry company, the Heavy weapon platoon is led by a officer equal in rank to the Company XO. He probably functions much like a Heavy Weapon Company commander does but in miniature. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibone Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Originally posted by Wartgamer: He probably functions much like a Heavy Weapon Company commander does but in miniature. Well I guess the smaller he is...the harder he is to hit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Originally posted by YankeeDog: Andreas (or anybody else who can answer): That's a neat little document you posted there. I speak enough German to decipher the written words on the page (though a few of the abbreviations took me a minute or two), but the symbols are giving me trouble -- I know some of the basic German symbols, but not all of them. Does anybody have a link to a key that explains WWII-era German military unit map symbols? I think one was posted on the forum a while back, but I can't find it. Thanks, YD Some of them are explained at my GD site - try this page http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/vehicle.htm Not a very comprehensive list, but a start until someone finds that other page for us. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 I put all the links here TPG Design tips Map Symbols 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 17, 2005 Author Share Posted March 17, 2005 Interesting picture of the rounds. Unfortunately it does not identify the German round (there were three types including the practice round), so it does not tell us anything. Weight of the Soviet round ~16kg Weight of the German round - 15.8kg Source: 'Lexikon der Wehrmacht' Paul - I can not get your link to work in Safari. Is that a Safari problem? I can dig for and if I find it, scan a table with symbol explanations later. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 The link to TPG works for me but the link http://www.25panzergrendiv.com/main_folder/Organizational_Signs.html is not. The home page http://www.25panzergrendiv.com/ is working. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 17, 2005 Author Share Posted March 17, 2005 Here you go - not all of them, but enough to understand this Gliederungsbild, I hope. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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