Commonwealth and German battalion organisation

[YankeeDog]

Thanks, all. I have received assistance from multiple sources.

After all, how can one consider oneself a grog without knowing the proper way to represent a "Musikcorps" on tactical maps?

Cheers,

YD

[Wartgamer]

From what I have read, the Germans actually captured some capabilty to manufacture these 'Soviet' rounds. In other words, they over ran the factories that made ammunition. That is what I believe this picture shows.

It may be possible that the mortars, when being used as a battalion weapon, would fire a smaller payload round.

But they developed thier own HE round(s) also. One of them is the round at the right in the previous picture. It was a smaller round, possibly with better range, and the Blast value in CM reflects this also.

In Korea, the communists had a few 120mm rounds themselves, including a 46 pounder.

[ March 17, 2005, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

[Wartgamer]

How many soldiers in a Soviet Infantry Regt that has 6 120mm mortars?

[Bigduke6]

Wartgamer,

Well that's a pretty open-ended question because of fudge factors like attachements, year, and casualties and so forth, but rough TO&E you're looking at around 2,700 - 2,800 men. Maybe even top end over 3,000, although that would almost always be on paper.

Figure about 750-800 in each of the three rifle battalions, plus possible attachments from the rgt AT rifle company, rgt AT gun company, rgt field gun company, SMG company, and of course your 120mm mortars (which I love BTW, nothing better for erasing an AT gun!)

A Red Army rifle regiment has a LOT of firepower, and that's even before you start adding in division-level MGs, engineers, recon, artillery, AT, etc. etc.

[ March 18, 2005, 02:29 AM: Message edited by: Bigduke6 ]

[Wartgamer]

An interesting stat is that German 81mm mortar production was 1000+ a month. This could go higher especially at the end of 44.

[jacobs_ladder2]

I might be a little late with this but the Niehorster website here is an awesome resource. As someone has already stated, this guy gets his data directly from Tessin (amongst others). Honestly, for English translations, you won't do much better.

His site and books make extensive use of the German symbology discussed in this thread. Every TO&E has an accompanying legend to help you decipher the chart. For example, these symbols are more than enough to allow you to understand the organization of 1000s of formations. If you are seriously interested in the topic I would suggest investing the time into learning the original German style of TO&E.

Cheers

Paul

[Wartgamer]

I agree with JasonC that 120mm in Normandy (initially) do not seem to be present in many numbers. In fact, many divisions do not have much arty except captured soviet and others guns.

Perhaps the issuing of 120mm was somewhat concentrated in the east? The thought being that they had to counter the Soviet weapons?

The US and CW use of heavy mortars was never a regt or battalion weapon but it was often 'loaned'. These heavy mortars often needed arty-like support in FOs and haulage for the ammo.

[dalem]

The only heavy mortar in the U.S. TO&E was the 107mm/4.2" "chemical" mortar. It was a Corps asset, held in independent mortar artillery battalions.

-dale

[Wartgamer]

Yes. Thats the point. The Germans would not have felt they needed the 120mm at battalion/regt if heavy mortars were not being used by the Western Allies that way.

The US did loan out 4.2 in to regts, etc as needed. But not every regt could be accomidated. The US did have a cannon company at Regt btw.

[dalem]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

Yes. Thats the point. The Germans would not have felt they needed the 120mm at battalion/regt if heavy mortars were not being used by the Western Allies that way.

The US did loan out 4.2 in to regts, etc as needed. But not every regt could be accomidated. The US did have a cannon company at Regt btw.

The cannon company was equipped with the M3 105mm howitzer - essentially a shortened and lightened version of the standard M2A1 in Medium artillery battalions. I don't believe the M2 (the 4.2" mortar) was loaned out at regiment level, though.

And I don't agree with your line of reasoning about "the Germans would not have felt they needed it". The goal is never firepower parity, it is firepower superiority. If the Germans thought they could achieve it and maintain mobility, I think they would have.

-dale

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

Yes. Thats the point. The Germans would not have felt they needed the 120mm at battalion/regt if heavy mortars were not being used by the Western Allies that way.

Utter rubbish, seeing that they started using it at regimental level a long time before meeting any of the western allies. Does it take a special talent to make up BS statements like your's, or is it easily done?

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

An interesting stat is that German 81mm mortar production was 1000+ a month. This could go higher especially at the end of 44.

Wow. Really? You are my hero for your ability to do math. Shame you have your facts wrong though (as usual).

I mean, how difficult is it to figure out that 19,588 or 26,341 are numbers considerably in excess of 1,000/month, when we divide them by 12? There are four months in the whole war when production ran 'around 1,000'. From mid to end-44 it ran comfortably above 2,000, with 3,950 reported in December.

Stop pulling stuff out of your a** and either contribute something meaningful, or stop spamming the forum with your idiotic statements.

[Wartgamer]

You do not need a hero. You need someone to explain to you what a plus(+) sign means.

My point is that it was at least 1000 a month and higher.

You sound like you may have real issues.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

My point is that it was at least 1000 a month and higher.

That is about as interesting as the statement that 'night follows day'. Factually correct. Just not very impressive as a news item. That's what I mean by 'spam', you see. Meaningless, pointless, googled up statements. Interspersed by plain wrong stuff. You are a master at providing that.

[Wartgamer]

Not trying to interest you. Trying to logically find where the 120mm fit into the German Order of Battle.

http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/gerob/gerob.html

If you go through much of this information, its evident that not many 120mm are even at the Regt level (and so Andreas is wrong). 81mm are all the rage.

So, if in the middle of 1944 (the 120mm has been in production for awhile), these divisions are not using it; Then who is?

81mm would tend to be lost easier than 120mm due to proximity to the enemy. Thats one of the reasons that the production was greater.

Speculation: Were they in other divisions in France not in Normany? In Italy? Russia?

Certainly those divisions burnt out in Russia and transferred to France/Germany/wherever, did not bring heavy equipment with them.

And US heavy mortars were attached to infantry outside of thier typical unit grouping.

[dalem]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

And US heavy mortars were attached to infantry outside of thier typical unit grouping.

When and where?

-dale

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by dalem:

The only heavy mortar in the U.S. TO&E was the 107mm/4.2" "chemical" mortar. It was a Corps asset, held in independent mortar artillery battalions.

Correct me if I'm horlicks, but wasn't the 4.2" in US service employed only by CWS units, rather than artillery?

I believe Royal Artillery mortar batteries were formed out East, but I've never heard of the USA doing so.

All the best,

John.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

If you go through much of this information, its evident that not many 120mm are even at the Regt level (and so Andreas is wrong).

Why?

[dalem]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dalem:

The only heavy mortar in the U.S. TO&E was the 107mm/4.2" "chemical" mortar. It was a Corps asset, held in independent mortar artillery battalions.

Correct me if I'm horlicks, but wasn't the 4.2" in US service employed only by CWS units, rather than artillery?

I believe Royal Artillery mortar batteries were formed out East, but I've never heard of the USA doing so.

All the best,

John. </font>

[dalem]

Followup:

I'm clearly incorrect about attaching out of the 4.2" - numerous entries in the online history of the 87th Chemical Mortar Battalion here refer to different companies being specifically attached "with" various infantry regiments (not just tasked in support of as I had previously thought) along the front. I've skimmed through the history through August and I'm satisfied that it was not just a D-Day landing expedient.

Interesting link, from what I've read of it so far.

-dale

[Wartgamer]

Chapter 10

93rd Chemical Mortar Battalion battles

The 93rd Cml Mort Bn joined VIII Corps in action at Emmelshausen on 29 March 1945. The first company was committed on 3 April 1945. The companies of the battalion were attached to various divisions of the Corps and fought with them until relieved on 20 April 1945. The entire action was characterized by light resistance and lack of great need for the heavy support of which mortars are capable. 1148 rounds (579 HE and 570 WP) were fired by the battalion.

Battalion Headquarters. During the entire action, battalion headquarters stayed in the vicinity of VIII Corps headquarters. Telephone communication with Corps was nearly continuous and liaison was maintained with the Corps chemical officer. Battalion headquarters retained close administrative control with the companies. Regular scheduled visits to the companies by the commanding officer, executive officer and staff officers kept battalion headquarters appraised of the administrative and tactical situation of the mortar companies.

Headquarters Company. The company remained with battalion headquarters at all times. The ammunition sections maintained a battalion ammunition dump of approximately 6000 rounds and moved it forward each time the company moved. They also kept the mortar companies supplied with ample ammunition during the entire period. The supply sections hauled all classes of supplies from the Army dumps to the mortar companies.

Company A. The company was attached to the 65th Infantry Division by operation order of VIII Corps dated 3 April 1945. On that date the company departed the battalion assembly area, vicinity Neukirchen, and reported to an assembly area in the 65th Infantry Division zone at Sontra. On the following day the company was attached to the 259th Infantry Regiment and the platoons further attached to the three battalions of the regiment. On the initial movement into positions, the company was strafed by approximately 50 ME 109 planes. No casualties resulted and the platoons were emplaced in defensive positions in support of the regiment in the vicinity of Mulverstedt.

The company remained attached to the 259th Infantry Regiment until 13 April when it reverted to control of the 65th Infantry Division. At that time the division was placed in corps reserve and the company moved to an assembly area in the vicinity of Friedrichroda. The company was relieved from attachment to the 65th Infantry Division on 16 April and reverted to battalion control.

On 18th April, Company A was attached to the 76th Infantry Division at Limbach and further attached to the 385th Infantry Regiment. Late on 18 April the entire company supported the 385th in an attack on Chemnitz. The company fired into the town scoring hits on factories in the town and starting fires. 111 rounds of HE and 6 rounds of WP were expended during this operation. On 20 April the company again reverted to battalion control and saw no further action during the period. The company lost two men missing in action.

Company B. The company was attached to the 89th Infantry Division by VIII Corps operation order on 3 April. The entire company was attached to the 353rd Infantry Regiment and moved forward in the attack on Eisenach. After Eisenach had been captured, the company moved to support the attack on Rohla on 7 April. Very effective fire was placed on the town that day and the town was taken. 98 rounds of HE and 96 rounds of WP were expended in this action, and the gun positions were attacked both by small arms fire and by five Nazi planes, type not identified.

[JonS]

Originally posted by dalem:

Followup:

I'm clearly incorrect about attaching out of the 4.2" - numerous entries in the online history of the 87th Chemical Mortar Battalion here refer to different companies being specifically attached "with" various infantry regiments (not just tasked in support of as I had previously thought) along the front. I've skimmed through the history through August and I'm satisfied that it was not just a D-Day landing expedient.

That sounds like the way indep Tank, TD, AA, Engr, etc assts were handled by the US. Those units fought with particular divs, regts, and bns, for variable amounts of time, but were not part of those divs, regts, or bns. Nothing particularly startling there.

Jon

[dalem]

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dalem:

Followup:

I'm clearly incorrect about attaching out of the 4.2" - numerous entries in the online history of the 87th Chemical Mortar Battalion here refer to different companies being specifically attached "with" various infantry regiments (not just tasked in support of as I had previously thought) along the front. I've skimmed through the history through August and I'm satisfied that it was not just a D-Day landing expedient.

That sounds like the way indep Tank, TD, AA, Engr, etc assts were handled by the US. Those units fought with particular divs, regts, and bns, for variable amounts of time, but were not part of those divs, regts, or bns. Nothing particularly startling there.

Jon </font>

[YankeeDog]

Great link. It further convinces me that the 4.2" battalions may have been organized at the Corps level, but were usually assigned, and commanded on a day-to-day basis, on the Regimental or even Battalion level.

This is why I think CMAK gets it wrong in modeling 4.2" mortars as a Corps-level asset. From a strict TOE perspective, that's true, but for purposes of a tactical battle wargame like CMAK, IMHO they should probably be considered Regimental assets.

Cheers,

YD

[dalem]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

Great link. It further convinces me that the 4.2" battalions may have been organized at the Corps level, but were usually assigned, and commanded on a day-to-day basis, on the Regimental or even Battalion level.

This is why I think CMAK gets it wrong in modeling 4.2" mortars as a Corps-level asset. From a strict TOE perspective, that's true, but for purposes of a tactical battle wargame like CMAK, IMHO they should probably be considered Regimental assets.

Cheers,

YD

Who can afford U.S. artillery in CMAK anyway?

-dale