Need advice - i.e. spoiler info on 2 pounders and tigers

[coe]

**** spoiler alert ****

****Note this thread will have spoilers for the two pounders and tigers

So my problem is that as the germans I keep getting pounded by artillery and my armored cars get picked off by 2 pounders from over 1100 yards and I can't even set up my machine guns in the rough parts to support the infantry crossing open ground because they get pounded by artillery. Of course I have my tanks but I'm not quite sure how to apply them in this case since the infantry will get stripped off and if I throw them in half tracks the half tracks will get picked off by the 2 pounders from over 1 KM away.

Any advice on this (by the way I did look at the layout of the british forces and to assault the vineyard/grove my guys have to cross open ground and there will be alot of fire at them. (I don't have enough artillery to smoke the way and even if I did I'll still be at a manpower disadvantage in close combat on prepared positions.))

[SteveP]

This is one of my favorite scenarios. I remember playing it several times (mostly hot seat) to try out different approaches. As JasonC (among others) points out often (and justifiably) knowing how to advance infantry across open ground is a key skill in CM, and that's certainly true here. I won't repeat his advice about how to do that. In this scenario, I found the best approach is to use your tanks and ACs as overwatch. The Tigers can obviously move in closer, the PZIIIs have to stay back more, and the ACs have to be in partial defilade (from the ATGs). As the British open up on your advancing infantry, you pound them with HE from the tanks (the MGs can help, but mostly to keep the British pinned down once the HE has done its job). The infantry can also get some protection in that wadi in front of the olive grove (which is a good distance for a firefight). Eventually you wear down the British front line so you can advance into the cover of the olive grove with them.

There are other things going on, of course (e.g., exchanges of FO artillery, knocking out the ATGs, dealing with the British tank reinforcements), but I think that the essence of the scenario for the Germans is advancing infantry in front of overwatch.

The scenario is actually more interesting from the British side, I think, though not if you are playing the AI.

Hope that helps.

[coe]

hmmm, that's interesting

when you mean the wadi you mean the one on the right (if looking at the british lines from the german point of view)....

So I've tried one company route through that and then a company up the hill on the left with all the mortars the FO and 4 machine guns. I think the problem is you can't sit still because you'll get bombarded. That's the problem on the mini ridge in front of the grove - I move the company and naturally the machine gunners are a bit behind...and I can't get the AC's anywhere remotely close because even at 1300m hull down they get plinked off by the unseen 2 pounders or artilleried to death.

I've thought of advancing the machine gunners first to the mini ridge and then having the infantry pass through them. since infantry support fire at the distance is not that effective I thought I'd advance all the company at once with one squad way in front (or half a squad) way in front) of each platoon. Then the company commander with the MGs assists in covering fire.

I don't know how useful smoke will be and if I can lay down enough of it.

As for infantry advance I thought about sending one platoon forward first only but that saves the platoon from artillery fire and the others that are stationary get pounded...

Where would you position the tanks?

[Other Means]

Ride the arty out. If you get hit dodge it if you're on the edge of it, stop if not. It won't last forever and your men can recover. Don't go into trees, stay in the rough or the rocks and advance with bounds.

If I'm moving a platoon forward, I let my most experienced squad move first, then others with the platoon leader moving the same time as a squad closer to the enemy and the last guy advancing into the next turn.

It takes a few seconds to acquire a target. So you want to spread the hurt over your whole platoon. By the time the 1st squad are getting shot at you want them to be stopped, then the 2nd squad will get shot at just as they are stopping OR the leader will be getting shot, then the last guy should still be advancing over the 60s limit, that way they get shot at in the beginning of the next turn just as they stop, and the 1st squad take their turn.

If you do this with a whole company you can advance ~50m/turn without getting too tired or too shot up.

Also, squads spot the enemy a lot better when they're stopped so it gives you a chance to spot and fire with non-pinned squads.

Anything you see, kill with overwatch.

[John Kettler]

coe,

The advice about riding out the artillery fire in rocks is valid for the game, but not so good in reality, because as any number of combat accounts will show, gunfire and shellfire into rocks create all sorts of secondary missiles, each capable of wounding all by itself. Luckily for you, since you've already got your hands full, the game doesn't model this, even though it's one of the prime reasons casualties were so high at places like Crete.

Regards,

John Kettler

[SteveP]

JK - very interesting insight! I have recently been playing a lot of desert QBs and have come to appreciate what an amazing defensive position the rough terrain provides. Units there can eat a lot of ammo before being driven out. Also, unlike with woods and heavy buildings, everybody in the rough terrain has LOS/LOF to the attackers. If, in fact, this terrain should be more dangerous to the defender than is the case in CM, then I think that's a significant issue. My understanding had been that the large rocks (boulders?) tended to provide useful protection from blast, and that was why CM was modeled that way.

coe -- don't get hung up on the ACs and the HTs. The ACs don't have much of a role in a battle like this. I think they are there for historical reasons -- it was the ACs that ran into this defensive position and alerted the Germans. The ACs mostly stay out of the way until the panzers make things safer. Same with the HTs -- they can ferry infantry around late in the battle, but don't have much to do until then. The HMGs are useful in supplementing the work of the panzers, but that's all. Think of your infantry (in the first phase of the battle) as basically spotting for the panzers. The infantry can get close enough to do that (and it doesn't matter if they've taken some casualties in the meantime -- they can still spot). If you want to use smoke, wait until after you cleared away part of the British front line, then use smoke to mask the other part while you rush your infantry into the grove. Once you are in the grove and around the flank of the British, the defense collapses pretty quickly (at least against the AI )

[Kingfish]

Keep the lighter vehicles back and out of LOS. Roll the Tigers forward, they are practically invunerable. Bait the 2pdrs into revealing themselves by using shoot and scoot commands on your ACs / Mk IIIs. The Tigers will plink whatever AT gun reveals itself.

Once the guns are cleared roll the Mk IIIs and ACs forward, and begin pulverising a section of front, then switching to a new section after a turn or two. Soon you'll have cleared a good portion of the Grove, at least so your mech components can roll in and deploy its infantry. Send the HTs back to pick up whatever foot infantry hasn't made it to the Grove.

[coe]

any historical results available? (i.e. what happened in reality?)

[SteveP]

I think it's fair to say that the British put up a brave fight, but they didn't hold up the German advance very long. The British simply weren't prepared for anything like the Tiger tank at that point. Also, I don't believe there were any British tank reinforcements in the real battle. My guess is that the scenario is designed to be a more "balanced" fight than to be a completely historical recreation. Also, there's always the problem of designing something that the AI can manage without falling apart too quickly.

[Noba]

In a recently completed game, my German opponent tried a new and ultimately decisive approach. We had played the game previously and he had all the problems as Germans listed above. Going straight in and having his infantry cut up and inefective.

His answer in the replay was to load up the infantry and cut across the map from German left to right and attack the extreme left of the British defense. The Tigers had meanwhile split with one going left and the other two right of the trees. The mark 3's plastered the corner of the trees the infantry were making for with a few turns of area fire along with all the German artillery. This fire had surprisingly little effect on the British infantry and even the 25pdr spotter survived, (only to die before getting rounds onto the vulnerable infantry due to the over running mark 3's). The Tigers slipped past the trees on the right making for the far end to interdict the British reinforcing tanks... a lone 2pdr gun not able to stop them.

The main infantry force unloaded in the gully and advanced behind the now approaching mark 3's. These broke into the trees and 4 abreast, swung left in line to roll up the defenders. Now the mark 3's have cannister... the British infantry either died or surrendered en-mass to this horrendous assault. The follow up German infantry didn't have it all their own way, but the tanks cleared out most of the defenders all the way across to the other end of the trees! My British defense had been modified to defend futher back into the trees in platoon groups (with 2pdrs in depth as well on the tree fringes) and as the German tanks passed them they tried to interrupt the follow up infantry. Big losses on both sides was the result.

Meanwhile the left flank Tiger had been destroyed by 2 pdr cross-fire and the small German infantry force held up by a British platoon that had left the depression, and moved forward to a slight rise in the brush. The two Tigers on the German right had failed to stop 3 lees getting into the trees because of smoke and one set off into the trees only to be destroyed by British infantry. 4 Lees had moved to try and ambush the Tigers from behing the small tree area, one died quickly after attempting a "shoot and scoot".

The mark 3's continued on, losing numbers to the Lees but two survived 2pdr hits and took the main flag with a remainders of just 2 squads that had followed.

The last Tiger started to REVERSE all the way across the back side of the trees to join up on the main flag, also destoying 2 Lees whilst in motion...!! It then headed towards the central flag but the game ended before it got there. The fighting in the trees between the two sides infantry was "to the death". Not many troops survived. The British held two flags with crews and company HQ's in one case, and remnants of platoons in another.

The following stats sum up the battle.

Axis troops ok - 142

Allied troops ok - 131

Casualties - Axis - 278

Casualties - Allies - 416

KIA - Axis - 84

KIA - Allies - 136

Captured - Axis - 12

Captured - Allies - 107

Axis 58% - Allies 42% Minor Axis win.

I have the files if anyone is interesting in seeing the end positions...

All in all, a brilliant answer to the tactical problem set.

Noba.

[37mm]

Originally posted by Noba:

In a recently completed game... snipped

Why am I not surprised that you are still playing that scenario... what is it now... 25 times?

[Noba]

Originally posted by Sir 37mm:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Noba:

In a recently completed game... snipped

Why am I not surprised that you are still playing that scenario... what is it now... 25 times? </font>

[coe]

So historically the germans also lost alot of infantry?

[SteveP]

Originally posted by coe:

So historically the germans also lost alot of infantry?

People with more expertise may know the answer, but I don't think the Germans had a higher than "normal" casualty rate. As I understand it, the Germans followed their standard practice of having the panzer grenadiers advancing in the wake of the panzers, and eventually they overran the position. Unlike a CM player who already knows about Tigers and knows to expect them, the British were taken by surprise and couldn't do much more than try to slow down the German advance. Also, as I mentioned before, I don't believe the British were blessed with tank reinforcements IRL. They had to make do with the 2 lbers.