Fighting from a house

[Sergei]

A squad of nine men is firing from a 1-storey heavy building. Do they all pack into the few windows available? If so, then in how good cover are they really? If not, should they benefit from the full firepower rating?

The same squad mans a 2-storey building. Do they all stay in the same store, or do half of the men go upstairs? Would doing so make the squad harder to suppress?

[Thomm]

(1) Possibly, If there is a minimum of 5 windows, assuming that one window provides space for 2 soldiers max.

(2) Depends on the type of the wall and whether they are shooting themselves.

(3) No. Reduced firepower, obviously.

(4) No, they stay on the same floor.

(5) No. They would the need the same number of windows, therefore the same volume of suppressive fire.

[Sergei]

To (5), consider that if you can have 1 guy per window instead of 2, you have 2 times as many targets for your enemy to suppress.

[Thomm]

Correction: the number of targets is the same (9), but their spatial density is now half as high as before.

[Sergei]

But when laying suppressive fire, the windows are the targets (which remain even if the men pull their heads in, i.e. are suppressed).

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Sergei:

A squad of nine men is firing from a 1-storey heavy building. Do they all pack into the few windows available?

Depends on how well trained they are, how long they have to put the house into a state of defence, and how the house is constructed.

Shooting from windows is really not a good way to live long enough to collect your war service pension. Much better is to create loopholes to shoot through, which will be pretty easy through tile roofs, less easy through brick or wooden walls, and a complete waste of time through thick stone.

If you must shoot through a window, I was taught to do it from the back of the room.

In real life, a competent section or platoon commander is going to be very much more concerned about achieving all-round defence and making sure no approach routes into the defensive layout are left uncovered by fire than in trying to get lots of rifles all pointing in the same direction.

All the best,

John.

[Andreas]

Are there houses in the set-up I sent to you? Are you still reeling from your defeat in our last game (let's face it, you were saved by the scoring error).

Where's my turn?

[YankeeDog]

Keep in mind that it's relatively uncommon for a squad in any situation to engage with all of it's soldiers at once.

The "all up" firing line-type thing does happen, but more often it's only 25-50% of the squad that's actually engaged and firing during any brief segment of combat. The Squad leader spends the least time firing becuase he's busy commanding. Others are running messages to the Platoon Commander, getting more ammo to the LMG, watching the flank, etc.

So, it's not necessarily unrealistic, in the abstract world of CM, that a squad in a small building has the same fp as a squad in an environment that would seem to make it easier for everybody to engage, such as, say, a treeline.

Also, buildings rarely exist in the real world perfect rectangles without additional hard structures around them; many have little add-on elements, like stairways, or maybe a basement blukhead, or maybe a little shed or outhouse or whatever, near or attached to them that would also offer good cover. So 1-3 members of a squad showing as "inside" a small building in CM might actually be outside the building proper, taking cover in the root cellar just adjacent to the building er sumfink.

Cheers,

YD

[MikeyD]

"If you must shoot through a window, I was taught to do it from the back of the room."

I've found its wise to do that in CM as well. I you put your men up against a window they'll get seen/shot. My favorite technique is to put the men at the far back of the building, and just sit & wait for the enemy to come to you! I've mowed down a lot of enemy squads that way.

[Sergei]

All in due time, Andreas.

[PLM]

I thought about this while playing a certain First person shooter game yesterday. Isnt so hard to detect where the enemy is going to pop out of in a building as its only certain rectangular windows where they can shoot out of typically. Now some buildings make differ but its fairly obvious when looking at most buildings as to where the enemy can shoot at you from. Its true that shooting in a window wont necessarily force them down though. Outside my 3rd story large rectangular windows overlooking a road, for example, I could be off to the side of a window looking out the window in the opposite direction. Someone firing directly into the window at a 90 degree angle to the building wouldnt be a major problem for me.

[Snarker]

Most FPS do a sucky job at rewarding concealment in dark corners / looking inside from outside. At least the ones that flash the name of other player when your sights touch him. Unrealistic. The human eye adjusts for the brightness of the light it's in, not for brightness of the area it's looking at.

[Sailor Malan]

Originally posted by Sergei:

A squad of nine men is firing from a 1-storey heavy building. Do they all pack into the few windows available? If so, then in how good cover are they really? If not, should they benefit from the full firepower rating?

The same squad mans a 2-storey building. Do they all stay in the same store, or do half of the men go upstairs? Would doing so make the squad harder to suppress?

Shooting from near windows is also a bad idea if the enemy know what they are doing: don't wait for the guy to show himself - just fire shots through the wall beside and underneath it, full calibre will go through a brick or wooden wall no trouble at reasonable range. Best as said above to loophole, and try to avoid being seen at all. Your average building (except the very old stone ones) is only a degree of cover, not a bunker!

[JasonC]

The problem in real fights in cities is that there are a lot of houses. And larger buildings. You can't cover every window. When a shot does come you can't tell where it came from.

Firepower drives men away from the front windows and doors, but they are still there. Walk three blocks and the people that can see you change completely, what counts as a front window likewise etc.

When the problem is a single stone house, any HE will do the trick. They are only tough for men without any heavy weapons, taken solo. But they tend not to come solo, they come in great gobs.

[Wartgamer]

Infantry in buildings are just too vulnearble to direct and indirect HE.

The taller a building is, the greater number of indirect fire rounds it will 'catch'. This is because rounds are coming in at an angle. No one is going to stay in a house catching 75mm+ HE for very long.

Unreinforced buildings are also very vulnerable to small arms AP rounds. Sustained HMG fire can even 'mousehole' a building.