Recon ACs

[junk2drive]

I watch an opponent's PSW go up in smoke and pondered recon in CMAK.

Picking July 44 Italy, PSWs are twice the price of USA jeeps. They last about as long.

For 40+ points I can get a jeep and a sharpshooter with binoculars. The ss is 22 and a platoon HQ is 20 with 5 men and binoculars.

I assume the other countries are similar.

What is your choice for sending out front for recon?

[Bruce70]

Depends on the perpose, I usually send out an infantry platoon for recon, but I expect them to fight too. White scout cars are good for that purpose. Unfortunately, the axis side does not have a similar vehicle, so I guess kubelwagons and snipers might be a good alternative.

[Other Means]

Vehicles are only useful for recon by bang, which gives you no real info as they generally go bang before you see the banger.

Sharpshooters 100m in front of the main body I find are best, as they can get close enough to resolve sound contacts without being seen, while the main body is being shot at by your opponents MG's. With them, I use full squads with 150m CA's and MTC, then no CA's and advance when under fire.

Pretty standard I guess, except most people split the lead squad. I find it better not to as they can only spot when not pinned, and they pin less in the full squad. YMMV.

The only time I scout with vehicles is when I suspect mines, and then I take the cheapest/most useless first. Generally a bren carrier as I tend to play British.

The CW get some great armoured cars but I prefer to use these in a somewhat withdrawn role, as the guns on them are great. The Staghound III is MG proof and can kill a PzIV @ > 700m.

[Sergei]

Method depends on terrain (and visibility). In dense forest it is useless to send in lone scouts, while if there is an opening to cross, I usually first send a half squad followed by the other half and then the rest of the platoon, followed by the rest of the company.

[David I]

I might add that AC recon is also dependent on your force mix. If you haven't any infantry and you have AC's well then....

DavidI

[SpitfireXI]

Were light vehicles used in real life for "recon by bang"? I would think the volunteers for this would be hard to get after a while.

[Sergei]

Or vehicles, for that matter... of course it did happen, but then it was accidental. Such as in the Arnhem bridge.

[JasonC]

Light armor was indeed used for operational recon, but it isn't what we are typically doing in CM when we want a spot of an enemy known to be present overall, good enough to shoot back at him. That is battlefield recon, and all units were expected to do it themselves with their organic equipment, not specialty recon formations.

Specialty recon was designed to find out whether enemy were present at all, not exactly where. In CM terms, are there any enemy on this map or is it empty. They did this by pushing columns of vehicles down every capillary of the road network in a given region, looking for roadblocks and the like. If they took fire anywhere, the lead vehicle backed up into full defilade and radioed in the contact.

They might occasionally "develop" light contacts by using the rest of the battalion, calling up a company or so at a time. Then they would not recon by death, but deploy platoons etc off road, overwatch with their heavy weapons (gun and mortar equipped halftracks or SP arty), and flank the road. The ACs themselves were meant to protect against pure infantry forces, which were by far the most common in all armies and the ones most likely to be encountered first, farthest forward.

Basically they flowed only into areas found to be completely clear of the enemy, and did not attempt to force their way into defended locations. The deploy and flank with supporting fire drills could clear very small roadblocks and outposts, and thereby find the actual real positions of the enemy - but these forces had essentially no ability to defeat a full battle position. And it was a waste of their special equipment and skills to try.

Occasionally the Germans would bulk up the divisional recon battalion with real AFVs (often Panzer Jaegers or StuGs, another free floating divisional asset) and use them as a mobile reserve or an additional KG besides the regimental ones. In those cases, once real enemy were encountered they did not lead with PSWs trying to get themselves killed, but with full AFVs.

Battlefield recon on the other hand was typically done with dismounted infantry patrols, or occasionally pairs of full tanks operating ahead of a column. Under strong overwatch from the rest of the force, ready to deploy to attack and destroy anything that fired at either.

In battle narratives of light armor units, over and over again you find the comment, "checked by AT fire" or "unable to proceed due to flanking AT fire from location X". They simply halted the larger unit if there was anything firing at them that could hole even a lightly armored vehicle. No razzle dazzle. Light armor losses also typically run far behind those of full AFVs, in major battles. Because they simply were not used nearly as aggressively, when strong enemy positions were known to be present.

[Other Means]

See this website of the Royal tank regiment in WWII.

It details the casualties for each day. One thing you notice is the steady drip of men killed or wounded while scouting, generally as "shot in the stomach". Nasty.

[junk2drive]

I am frequently presented in scenarios with a large map and a mobile force. Light tanks and/or ACs lead the pack. Down the roads my columns move until something in front goes boom and flames.

Since the sneakiest units are small and the best spotters have binoculars, sharpshooters or Platoon HQs (could be split) should lead the pack. Most scenario designers don't include ss though in the starting lineup.

I think I had this thought before. I'll have to do a search.

[JasonC]

"I am frequently presented in scenarios with a large map and a mobile force."

Sure designers love it for some reason, even though maybe 1% of the war looked that way.

But in the real deal, they did not put a tin can in front in those situations. US practice was to lead with full medium tanks. Late war Germans frequently put 2 Panthers at the front of the column.

Opposition expected equals do not lead with light armor. Recon by death is a waste of its abilities, which at the tactical level come out later in the fight and in less than central parts of it.

In CM, if the enemy can KO your lead unit without showing a real gun, you aren't finding anything anyway. All you will get is a sound contact when light AA or ATRs hit the thing. Or a vehicle will kill it and then move.

If you want something expendable, send a half squad. If you want something the enemy will have to actually show real assets to shoot, send a full tank or two (the second to get the shooter right back, even if it bags the point tank).

Light armor does not create a real threat. The enemy fires if he wants to, using as little as possible. It is simply a dumb idea. As a stupid AI trick it can find ATGs - so can a Kubelwagen, the AI is that dumb. But that isn't tactics, it is just fooling a machine that doesn't know tactics.

[Bruce70]

I agree that scouting by death with light ACs is silly, but I disagree that there is no role for scouting with light armour in CM.

On a map with intermittent cover such as, but not exclusive to, those generated for QBs, HTs or Scout cars can close the distance to the enemy in hops.

You may lose an vehicle or two this way, but the end result is that you end up with a platoon of infantry (and vehicles) very close to the enemy. Using the infantry alone is not only more time consuming, but your opponent can just pin you with MG fire.

As I said earlier White scout cars are very useful for this. They can cover the ground between cover very quickly while carrying half a squad or HQ. It's a shame the Axis don't have a half-squad-carrying, speedy vehicle of similar calibre.

[junk2drive]

Most of the times as Allies that I have lead with tanks I end up with burning hulks. Shrecks and inf with fausts hiding along the path or long range ATGs that give no marker. Occasionally a TC hit by ss fire.

I hate losing high points pieces just to find where to target my mortars and arty.

[Mudhugger]

Were light vehicles used in real life for "recon by bang"? I would think the volunteers for this would be hard to get after a while.

I've read that US Armored Battalions had a Recon Platoon consisting of: 5 jeeps, a halftrack with a .50 and a bazooka, and 8 dismounted scouts. The British Armoured Regiment had a Recon Troop early consisting of: 9 Universal Carriers with 2 man crews. And by 1944 they were using 11 Stuarts, sometimes with the turrets removed and a .50 MG put in its place. Because; "stealth was more important than firepower".

Probably all used as per Jason's post above.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by junk2drive:

Most of the times as Allies that I have lead with tanks I end up with burning hulks. Shrecks and inf with fausts hiding along the path or long range ATGs that give no marker. Occasionally a TC hit by ss fire.

I hate losing high points pieces just to find where to target my mortars and arty.

Then don't. Lead with the grunts. Let them uncover the targets. Hold your armor far enough back so that they are at least not threatened by short range infantry weapons, yet can give HE and MG support to the infantry when the latter flush something. Keep your arty spotter somewhere in the vicinity of the armor, so that if something opens up at them, he will be able to see and target it.

Michael

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Other Means:

See this website of the Royal tank regiment in WWII.

It details the casualties for each day. One thing you notice is the steady drip of men killed or wounded while scouting, generally as "shot in the stomach". Nasty.

Indeed, and Keith Douglas, one of the leading poets of his generation, was killed on active service with the Sherwood Rangers while conducting a dismounted recce.

One of the things that very sharply limits the use of light recce vehicles in CM is the inability to do what they would have done in real life, namely have the vehicle commander dismount and take a shufti on foot. "Recce isn't done by vehicles, recce is done by people who ride in vehicles."

All the best,

John.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Or vehicles, for that matter... of course it did happen, but then it was accidental. Such as in the Arnhem bridge.

Wasn't the action by Graebner's recce unit really an attempted coup de main or somefink? ie an actual assault on British positions rather than a reconnaissance?

[Sergei]

Yes, I think so. However, as it failed, it essentially became recon by bang

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Yes, I think so. However, as it failed, it essentially became recon by bang

If there are no survivors, how do they report their findings....

[Hensworth]

I hope that recon forces will finally come into their own in CMC, where they will indeed be used to 'find out if this map is empty'.

A lot of people will get a healthy respect for ACs when they've had a couple of companies in march formation shredded.

[JasonC]

"a shame the Axis don't have a half-squad-carrying, speedy vehicle of similar calibre."

? It is called the SPW 250/1.

[junk2drive]

Posted at Axis History forum by David Leamann

Laffly W15 TCC in action (truck mounted ATGs). It reads in part:

"On 5th June, the tank destroyer platoon is deployed on the Belloy heights (1 km north-east of Molliens-Vidame – near Abbeville, on the Somme River). On evening, about 20 German light tanks are spotted on the road to Abbeville. The French 47mm AT guns open fire at a range of 2,000 meters. The 5th Laffly W15 TCC led by brigadier Rayon puts immediately a German tank on fire. The 3rd AT gun destroys a second German tank, which is also seen burning. Two additional German tanks seem to have been knocked out and immobilized.

On 6th June, the 54e BACA is deployed to block the Abbeville road. The 1st Laffly W15 TCC commanded by adjudant Marchal spots about 50 German tanks. He destroys 3 German heavy tanks (Panzer IVs probably) and then retreats, attracting the German tanks towards the 2nd and 3rd ambushed Laffly W15 TCC tank destroyers. The 3 French self-propelled AT guns open fire resulting in 6 German tanks burning and 4 other ones knocked out. The German crews of these 4 tanks bail out and begin to sneak towards the French vehicles. The French crews defend themselves with their SMGs. About 10 German soldiers are hit and the others are forced to retreat, surprised by the resistance. According to their usual tactic, the Germans avoid the area where French troops are resisting. They move back to start a renewed attack on a different axis.

According to the testimony of battalion commander Decoux, leading the 7e Régiment de Dragons, also operating in this area, 18 German tanks have been knocked out by the 54e BACA during these combats. Sous-lieutenant Brussaux on its side could personally witness only 9 burning and 4 knocked out German tanks. ..."

I guess we face the same challenges some days in CM.

[John Kettler]

I agree with John D Salt, for I've read stacks of accounts from all sides, to include Russian, in which TCs and even whole crews conducted dismounted recon. Do the CM games model the TC's binos/field glasses?

And far from driving around daring the Germans to shoot them, the radio equipped U.S. recon jeep units did lots of quiet watching and reporting from cover, and when they did move, they went in overwatched by a 60mm mortar team/s carried in the jeeps. Don't remember the real force composition, but it was described on a website a guy built in tribute to his dad, a jeep recon guy during the War.

Am astounded a full blown AC costs only twice as much as a jeep. How'd that happen?

Regards,

John Kettler

[JasonC]

A standard US cavalry platoon had 3 Greyhounds, 3 Jeeps with MG, and 3 Jeeps carrying 60mm mortars. Typical march order was MG, Greyhound, mortar.

If opposition was expected the Greyhound would lead. Dismounting for stealth was regularly used as John says - they also just relied on the lead jeep reversing direction as soon as they saw something.

They originally had M3 scout cars in North Africa, but the men preferred jeeps because they were much lower profile and far easy to do a 180 in, to get out of dodge when they saw something.

Higher ups tried to reduce the mortar allocation to 2 per platoon but the men protested so strongly they were allowed to keep one per squad. The men loved the 60mms because they allowed them to hit enemies without giving them LOS.

The squadron (battalion) also had a company of Stuarts and a section of M8HMC which could be used (typically in pairs) for direct HE, as "assault guns", or fired in battery when the cavalry was in defensive positions.

The Stuarts were the fire brigade, to back up the lighter guys when they ran in to too much. Reasonably effective against infantry force type enemies, mostly from all their MGs.

If there was real enemy armor around, they frequently cross attached TD platoons (M-10s etc).

[John Kettler]

JasonC,

Thanks for the info, especially since my memory's so porous on details! 3x60mm mortars could ruin someone's day or put down considerable smoke in a hurry for break contact actions.

Regards,

John Kettler