wunwinglow Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Hi team, I'm working up a map/battle for Wittmanns last action, and am having trouble locating any detailed info on the composition of the German forces involved. I have several good discriptions of the action (Fine Night for Tanks by Ken Tout, Road to Falaise by Stephen Hart, etc) and several reports from the Internet. Of course, loads of data on Wittmanns unit, but little else. I realise it was very much a scratch operation for the Germans, but any pointers would be appreciated. work in progress is at http://www.kipperboxes.co.uk/wittmannA.cmg if anyone wants to have a look! Any comments more than happily received! Thanks in advance, Tim P (wunwinglow) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicky Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 old Wittmann thread 1 CMBO? Scenario Depot - Rune "Wittman's last hour" Franco - "August Bank Holiday" Kingfish: Besides Franko's scenario I would also recommend you look at 'Cintheaux-Totalize' from Der Kessel. ********SPOILER************* * * * * * * * * Note the position of the towed 17pdrs AT guns in the woods north of the Petite Ravine, and the Tigers of the 101st outside Cintheaux. From what I read, the Tigers took a more or less direct path up the road towards Gaumensil (sp?) and thus exposed their flanks to the 17s. The point where the Tigers come into LOS of the guns should give you a decent range estimate. [ April 30, 2006, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: Wicky ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunwinglow Posted April 30, 2006 Author Share Posted April 30, 2006 Wicky, many thanks for the pointers, but unfortunately they all seem to have expired. The threads were handy though, I'll hunt down some of the books mentioned. If anyone is prepared to e-mail these cmg files, I'd be very thankful! Tim P (wunwinglow) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 According to 'Steel Inferno' by Michael Reynolds, the following German units were involved in the counterattack: 39x Mark IVs of II Bn./12th SS Pz 8x Mark VIE of 101st SS Schewere Pz Abt. 27x JgPz IVs of 1st SS PzJr Bn. I Bn./26th Pzgr Regt. 12th SS Escort Kompanie 1st SS Pz Corp Escort Kompanie 12th SS Pz Artillery Regiment (minus 1 Wespe battery) 12th SS Flak Bn. Part of III Luftwaffe Flak Corp 83rd Werfer Regiment 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Originally posted by wunwinglow: Hi team, I'm working up a map/battle for Wittmanns last action, and am having trouble locating any detailed info on the composition of the German forces involved. I have several good discriptions of the action (Fine Night for Tanks by Ken Tout, Road to Falaise by Stephen Hart, etc) and several reports from the Internet. Of course, loads of data on Wittmanns unit, but little else. I realise it was very much a scratch operation for the Germans, but any pointers would be appreciated. work in progress is at http://www.kipperboxes.co.uk/wittmannA.cmg if anyone wants to have a look! Any comments more than happily received! Thanks in advance, Tim P (wunwinglow) You need the book NO HOLDING BACK by Brian Reid, it offers a detailed account of Wittman's demise and the battle in general including a terrain map with the elevations on it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunwinglow Posted April 30, 2006 Author Share Posted April 30, 2006 Micheal and Kingfish, thats a great help! Amazon, here I come! Thanks guys, Tim P (wunwinglow) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Originally posted by wunwinglow: Hi team, [snip] work in progress is at http://www.kipperboxes.co.uk/wittmannA.cmg if anyone wants to have a look! Any comments more than happily received! Thanks in advance, Tim P (wunwinglow) Hi, maybe you want to take a look at this one [CMAK]: http://www.thedesertfox.net/Cintheaux.htm You also find the relevant references on the site. Especially I suggest building the map according to the reallife topological situation of the Cintheaux-St.Aignan area. 1/25000 map 16130 Series Bleue "Bretteville zur Laize" IGN Feel free to use my CMAK map, if you want to. Also, as already suggested, have a look at Brian Reids book to get some idea about an interesting interpretation of the battle. Furthermore have a look at this thread where I posted a summary of the published data on this matter, while I dissected the ...um nonsense a troll named P51 had posted: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=024918;p=2 I´m looking forward to your interpretation of this day´s battle. cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunwinglow Posted April 30, 2006 Author Share Posted April 30, 2006 I knew I'd strike gold.... Thanks DesertFox for your pointers, and the link to your Cintheaux download. Weird sensation, loading someone elses game that you have spent so many hours on; similar, but different. Different, but so similar! Of course, I hadn't thought of twisting the North-South alignment to get the main road straight! Duh... I found this aerial photo on the web, but I can't for the life of me find the link, so here it is on my website. Apologies to anyone if I am breaking copyright! Let me know if so, and I'll take it down. http://www.kipperboxes.co.uk/vue_aerienne-8_aout_1944.jpg . Warning. it is 2mb file. Anyway, 3 tiger wrecks marked in diamonds, but look more closely and there are dozens of other vehicles! It was taken in the morning after the 8th August.There is even what appears to be a Spitfire, in, or above, a field just to the right of the main road; west, in otherwords. South is to the top. Look at the light, diagonal field, level with the middle Tiger diamond. Anyway, thanks again, I'll keep you posted; I might just redo my map rotated slightly! Brilliant idea.... Tim P (wunwinglow) [ April 30, 2006, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: wunwinglow ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Originally posted by wunwinglow: [snip] http://www.kipperboxes.co.uk/vue_aerienne-8_aout_1944.jpg . Warning. it is 2mb file. Anyway, 3 tiger wrecks marked in diamonds, but look more closely and there are dozens of other vehicles! It was taken in the morning after the 8th August. [snip] Anyway, thanks again, I'll keep you posted; I might just redo my map rotated slightly! Brilliant idea.... Tim P (wunwinglow) Tim, great pic. I hadn´t seen this one before. I only had access to the aerial which is published in Agte´s book. The quality of this one however is way better and simply awesome! You really can see the wrecks. Wittmann´s wreck however isn´t marked with a diamond, but the hull of his tank can be seen north the tip of the arrow pointing to the "ancienne hauberge" near Gaumesnil. Furthermore this also confirms the hedgerow around the orchard of the "ancienne hauberge" which I had included in my revised CMAK scen. Great job sharing this one! cheers Helge 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zdenka Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 interesting that someone else is working on this battle.i recently put an operation on TPG based on ken touts books.he wrote four that cover this action. i designed my map from the sketches and terrain description given in kens books.my old eyes cant make out too much from aerial photos but i know that many of what appear to be roads and dirt tracks were created overnight during totalise by literally hundreds of AFV's driving in column formation. please dont get me wrong,i'm not for one moment suggesting that my map is correct and the other wrong.tbh i feel that the others are superior to mine.i just went with the information i had. i also read somewhere that the poles,canadians,RAC,1 NY and the RAF all laid claim to taking out wittmanns tiger ! i guess i'll have to play your scenario to find out ! just read through the old cmbo thread linked above and it jogged my memory. cant remember where/how i picked this snipet up but an eyewitness claimed that the tigers knocked out in that area were hit repeatedly by typhoons after their demise. [ April 30, 2006, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: zdenka ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Originally posted by wunwinglow: There is even what appears to be a Spitfire My God! Its the missing Typhoon!!! Quick, everyone, lets debate this again for the 500th time!!!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunwinglow Posted April 30, 2006 Author Share Posted April 30, 2006 Nope, def a Spitfire! Sorry if I'm stirring up old stuff, I hadn't realised there had been so much, um, discussion, over this subject, 'til I read the threads listed above. In recompense, here is my revised map bitmap for the editor; back up your old file first, of course! Makes things a little clearer on my monitor anyway. http://www.kipperboxes.co.uk/10019.bmp Back to adjusting my map..... Tim P (wunwinglow) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Helge Can you drop me an email please? Cheers Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Helge, and while you are at it, do you have any more Sealion scenarios finished? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Originally posted by Andreas: Helge Can you drop me an email please? Cheers Andreas While you are at it, drop me a line. I have Hasselt converted to CMAK. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Originally posted by Andreas: Helge Can you drop me an email please? Cheers Andreas You´ve got mail cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Originally posted by Kingfish: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas: Helge Can you drop me an email please? Cheers Andreas While you are at it, drop me a line. I have Hasselt converted to CMAK. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Originally posted by junk2drive: Helge, and while you are at it, do you have any more Sealion scenarios finished? Nope, haven´t touched the game for more than a year now. (Due to various reasons) Unlikely I will find time to do anymore scens in the future. Sorry for that. However I still have these Lydden, Hartley and Mark Cross maps in alpha stage gathering dust on my PC. Maybe I´ll find a way to get them out and someone with enough enthusiasm can find any use for them. We´ll see. cheers Helge 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Thanks for those that you did finish. I had a good time with Little Fritham PBEM. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Originally posted by junk2drive: I had a good time with Little Fritham PBEM. Yeah I had a lot of fun creating this one. Glad you liked it. BTW: Most names within stem from a hilarious sketch of a german comedian called "Loriot". Here is its transcript for those who understand a little german but you really have to see it (the sketch) on TV or DVD to LYAO: Guten Abend, meine Damen und Herren! Heute sehen Sie die achte Folge unseres sechzehnteiligen englischen Fernsehkrimis Die zwei Cousinen. Zunächst eine kurze Übersicht über den Handlungsablauf der bisher gesendeten sieben Folgen. Auf dem Landsitz North Cothelstone Hall von Lord und Lady Hesketh-Fortescue befinden sich außer dem jüngsten Sohn Meredith auch die Cousinen Priscilla und Gwyneth Molesworth aus den benachbarten Ortschaften Nether Addlethorpe und Middle Fritham, ferner ein Onkel von Lady Hesketh-Fortescue, der neunundsiebzigjährige Jasper Fetherston, dessen Besitz Thrumpton Castle zur Zeit an Lord Molesworth-Houghton, einen Vetter von Priscilla und Gwyneth Molesworth, vermietet ist. Gwyneth Molesworth hatte für Lord Hesketh-Fortescue in Nether Addlethorpe einen Schlips besorgt, ihn aber bei Lord Molesworth-Houghton liegengelassen. Lady Hesketh-Fortescue verdächtigt ihren Gatten, das letzte Wochenende mit Priscilla Molesworth in Middle Fritham verbracht zu haben. Gleichzeitig findet Meredith Hesketh-Fortescue auf einer Kutschfahrt mit Jasper Fetherston von Middle Fritham nach North Cothelstone Hall in Thrumpton Castle den Schlips aus Nether Addlethorpe. Nach einer dramatischen Auseinandersetzung zwischen Lady Hesketh-Fortescue und Priscilla Molesworth in North Cothelstone Hall eilt Gwyneth Molesworth nach dem zwei Meilen entfernten South Thoresby, um ihre Tanten Amelie Hollingworth und Lucinda Satterthwaite aufzusuchen. Diese sind jedoch nach North Thurston zu ihrem Schwager Thomas Thatcham gefahren, der als Gärtner in Thrumpton Castle bei Lord Molesworth-Houghton arbeitet. Gwyneth Molesworth fährt nach North Cothelstone Hall zurück, aber nicht über Middle Addlethorpe, sondern über North Thurston, Thrumpton Castle, Middle Fritham und Nether Addlethorpe. Dort trifft sie Priscilla Molesworth, die mit Lord Molesworth-Houghton noch nachts von Middle Fritham nach North Cothelstone Hall fahren wollte... (Loriot) cheers Helge 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankibanki Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 The moment I read "Middle Fritham" I though of that Loriot sketch and wondered if that location really existed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunwinglow Posted May 3, 2006 Author Share Posted May 3, 2006 Just got my copy of No Holding Back; what a cracking book! Thanks for the pointer, Tim P 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 Fritham 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunwinglow Posted May 3, 2006 Author Share Posted May 3, 2006 Ah, near 'The Butt'. What a coincidence. I start an Archery course tomorrow.... Tim P 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 You need a course for archery? I think I learned to string the bow, place the arrow, pull back, get your nose out of the way, in about ten minutes. After that it is just practice. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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