GoofyStance Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 I tried a search on CM, but didn't find anything about "bullet holes" in armor mods. After examining the pic of the shell hole in the Tiger's sponson, shown on a web site which was mentioned elsewhere on CMAK, I thought it wouldn't be hard to reproduce that shell hole effect on one of the BMP's of an AFV - for example, in the armor of a Pzkw IV. Is there a game-related technical reason why this wouldn't work? I grabbed a screen shot of this tank off this board (not being at the computer where my game is installed) and, using PhotoShop, applied a shell hole in the hump on the rear of the turret (please excuse my ignorance of the proper term), and the result was actually pretty good, not to toot my own horn. Any interest in such a mod if it hasn't already been done - and if it can work in the game's engine?? Any comments on the technical aspect of applying such a mod, or on the reality of shell holes in AFVs, would be much appreciated. Thanks. [ March 11, 2004, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: GoofyStance ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Well, if you're asking if the game can apply a shellhole mod after a tank is hit, the answer is no. That's a game-engine limitation. If you're asking about a standard mod that shows shellholes, it depends on how deep you want them. I doubt that you could create a shellhole that goes all the way through the armor except in certain rare areas of the vehicle's model (such as on the armor skirts). If you're just doing shell scars on the armor, or holes that don't try to be transparent, they should be fine. The only problem is that the same exact shell hole will show up on every tank of that model in play. Some people will dislike that effect. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meach Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Go for it and post your results here. Don't be afraid of doing a mod. Good idea and I for one would always relish a new mod, especially battle damage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Thunder Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 I added a small hole in the side skirt armor of my StuH42 mods. It's not the best effect and it appears on both sides of the tank since the side skirt armor BMP is used for both sides. Just like numbers on turrets, they appear on both sides but one side is "mirrored" (reversed) from the other. Okay for holes, but no good for numbers other than 808. If you are going to add holes, keep them small and keep them very few in number so they are not conspicously apparent all the time. The size of the hole will not show off any great amount of detail. I tried to get a jagged entry hole but it just didn't render well. It would have to be a very large hole to have jagged edges appear, IMHO. In the image below, you can see my attempt at two small holes in the side skirt armor. In the bottom pic you can just see the same hole appearing in the far side armor plate just above the gun barrel. CMMOD Database Filename: STuH42-KH.zip 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoofyStance Posted March 11, 2004 Author Share Posted March 11, 2004 Thanks for the input! This would be my first mod, so I'm learning as I go. I love to play with PhotoShop, and have a fair bit of experience altering and painting photos and drawings, so modding CMAK units would be fun. By the way, any tutorials out there on how to mod in CMAK? Is there a engine-related reason why complete-penetration shell holes cannot be placed on the hull or turret of a tank? I'd make the center of the hole black, especially in areas of the tank where you might not expect to see an interior light bulb shining through. Alternately, can I apply a transparency to the center of a shell hole in a side skirt (like Cpt. Thunder did - thanks for posting your attempts!) so one can see the underlying hull, or is that not allowed by the game engine? Good tip about the effect being reproduced on all vehicles of the same type in a scenario - I hadn't thought of that. Maybe I'll try it with a rare vehicle, like the Hetzer or Elefant ... And I'll need to find sources that can tell me what color primer was used on my chosen vehicle, so I can reproduce the effect of the outer layer of paint flaking off around the hole, exposing the underlying primer. Whew, this is getting rather involved 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Yeh, I've added lots-o shell strikes to my CMBB mods. Non-penetrating shell strikes in my Elefant, several of my T-34s, penetrations (with knockout magenta holes) in the skirts of some of my Stugs. I'm sure others too that I forgot. If they look halfway convincing it adds a bit of 'character' to the beast. I don't think I've done any shell strikes on CMAK, though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 PVT Ashercraft illustrates the proper placement of a standard 75mm diameter shell hole. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoofyStance Posted March 12, 2004 Author Share Posted March 12, 2004 That's the picture, alright - thanks for posting it. Amazing how that shell hole is so precise, with no signs of dimpling or buckling. Looks like it was drilled through the armor; repaint around the hole and I'd think it was a gun port or something deliberately designed into the tank. I tried placing a shell hole on various portions of an Elefant last night, and learned several things (which you modders will already know). The biggest problem I had was trying to work with a side-view BMP of an AFV. They look oddly scrunched front-to-rear in PhotoShop. Do you modders stretch these BMPS's according to a certain ratio? Also, do any of you armor grogs know if a primer coat was used on the Elefant in Italy, Fall of 1944? If so, what color was it - red, gray, or white? This next question may sound odd, but - if an Elefant were to sustain a complete penetration by an anti-tank shell, where on the hull or superstructure of the tank might this occur that gives the tank and the crew the highest chance of survival? I know anti-tank gunners tried to hit the most susceptible portions of a tank, but I'm focusing on tanks that survived a direct, penetrating hit. Finally, what usually happened in the repair areas when an AFV with a completely penetrating hole in its armor was repaired - was a steel plate welded over the hole, or what? Thanks in advance ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Originally posted by GoofyStance: That's the picture, alright - thanks for posting it. Amazing how that shell hole is so precise, with no signs of dimpling or buckling. ... That one was done at extreme short range IIRC... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Thunder Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Yes, you need to stretch the modded BMPs on their background canvas (without changing the canvas size) to get them to appear in the right proportions in the game. And anything that requires a specific "facing" like words (text), a swastika, etc. has to be mirrored (reversed) before you save it so it appears in the proper facing in the game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
752ndTank Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 That's the picture, alright - thanks for posting it.If anyone wants to bookmark this page or see more details about this knocked out Tiger in Cecina, go to: Tiger in Cecina 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
752ndTank Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Finally, what usually happened in the repair areas when an AFV with a completely penetrating hole in its armor was repaired - was a steel plate welded over the hole, or what? Shermans were prone to burning when penetrated by large caliber weapons. The intense heat of the fire changed the molecular composition of the steel, which essentially softened it to the point where it offered little, if any, ballistic protection against future engagements. So if the tank burned, as usually happened, it was not patched because all of the surrounding steel would have lost its integrity. However, patches were used in those rare cases where no fire occured, and the interior damage was not too significant. See my website for a rare view of an obviously patched Sherman in the 752nd Tank Battalion. It's the last photo on the following page: Patched Sherman in Italy Patches were also used on Tigers in the same circumstances. See my web page below for a photo of a patched Tiger. The last picture on the page is Tiger 712 of the 501 sPzAbt in North Africa. Note the rectangular patch on the side of the turret. This patch had been applied to cover a hole from an earlier penetration by a Churchill. Patched Tiger in Tunisia Hope this is of some interest. 752nd Tank Battalion in WWII [ March 13, 2004, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: 752ndTank ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoofyStance Posted March 13, 2004 Author Share Posted March 13, 2004 Originally posted by Captain_Thunder: Yes, you need to stretch the modded BMPs on their background canvas (without changing the canvas size) to get them to appear in the right proportions in the game. And anything that requires a specific "facing" like words (text), a swastika, etc. has to be mirrored (reversed) before you save it so it appears in the proper facing in the game. Cpn, thanks for the advice. Is there a magical number used to stretch the canvas - such as 20% on the X-axis? Or does it just involve a lot of eyeballing and stretching and shrinking until the side view "looks right"? I did notice the mirroring effect when I first applied a shell hole to the frontal BMP of an Elefant and saw it switched to the other side in a QB. Learning as I go ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoofyStance Posted March 13, 2004 Author Share Posted March 13, 2004 Originally posted by 752ndTank: See my website for a rare view of an obviously patched Sherman in the 752nd Tank Battalion. 752nd, thanks for the posting. I hadn't noticed the patches on the Sherman and Tiger, thinking they were just pieces of track or other paraphernalia hung on the sides of the tank. Most interesting! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Thunder Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Originally posted by GoofyStance: [qb]Cpn, thanks for the advice. Is there a magical number used to stretch the canvas - such as 20% on the X-axis? Or does it just involve a lot of eyeballing and stretching and shrinking until the side view "looks right"? I did notice the mirroring effect when I first applied a shell hole to the frontal BMP of an Elefant and saw it switched to the other side in a QB. Learning as I go ... There may be but I just eyeball it. I keep Paintshop running with my edited BMP loaded so I can "UNDO" my last changes if they don't look right. I save the edited image directly to the BMP folder of the game. The original is saved with a "-A.bmp" extension so the save from PSP doesn't overwrite it. CMAK is running already but at the main menu. I then load a scenario and locate my edited graphic and inspect it for proper proportions. If I have to make a change I abort the CMAK mission. Then bring u PSP hit UNDO and make another editing change from scratch and then resave repeating the process until it looks right. It usually just takes me two or three tries to get it the way I think it should look, so it doesn't take a lot of time to adjust things this way. I can do all several adjustments in just a couple of minutes. There is probably another way, but I'm comfortable doing it this way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Thunder Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Originally posted by GoofyStance: [qb]Cpn, thanks for the advice. Is there a magical number used to stretch the canvas - such as 20% on the X-axis? Or does it just involve a lot of eyeballing and stretching and shrinking until the side view "looks right"? I did notice the mirroring effect when I first applied a shell hole to the frontal BMP of an Elefant and saw it switched to the other side in a QB. Learning as I go ... There may be but I just eyeball it. I keep Paintshop running with my edited BMP loaded so I can "UNDO" my last changes if they don't look right. I save the edited image directly to the BMP folder of the game. The original is saved with a "-A.bmp" extension so the save from PSP doesn't overwrite it. CMAK is running already but at the main menu. I then load a scenario and locate my edited graphic and inspect it for proper proportions. If I have to make a change I abort the CMAK mission. Then bring u PSP hit UNDO and make another editing change from scratch and then resave repeating the process until it looks right. It usually just takes me two or three tries to get it the way I think it should look, so it doesn't take a lot of time to adjust things this way. I can do all several adjustments in just a couple of minutes. There is probably another way, but I'm comfortable doing it this way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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