Best of the best in the second world war

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by coldmeter:

Granted you could argue that the fact that the RN could not use the two treaty ports previously occupied by the British did cost the lives of seaman. However when Neville Chamberlain negotiated an agreement with Irish Prime Minister Eamon de Valera there was no concession to let the RN back in to them in times of conflict.

I recently read otherwise, but since I am not sure of my source, I will cease yapping about it.

I don't think it would have done much for our Neutrality if Allied ships were sailing in and out of Cork harbour.

I take your point. On the other hand, there was a lot of fudging on neutrality all during the war. I suppose what it comes down to is that by the time Ireland would feel secure from German retaliation, the ports would no longer be required.

Michael

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Big Jim:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by coldmeter:

There was however plenty of instances when De Valera secertly helped out the British. He secertly allowed RAF sea planes to fly through an Irish air corridor on there way from Lough Neagh to the Atlantic, reducing their time flying into theatre. There was also many a downed Allied aircrew that were taken to the border and allowed to escape.

Mark

It would have mightily pissed off the Brits if he hadn't done those things though. De Valera knew he couldn't push his luck with stuff like that: attacking the RAF and holding British airmen as POWs. Wars have started for less than that! </font>

[Mikko H.]

Getting back to overestimates of plane kills, Michael was making the (to me) interesting point that everybody over-estimates kills (that's the natural adrenaline rush thing) but that some nations seem to consistently over-estimate by a higher margin.

Recent research in the Russian archives has given very interesting info on Finnish aerial victory claims vs. reality. Shortly put, during the Winter War 1939-40 Finnish claims were exceptionally accurate, but during the Continuation War 1941-44 less so (occasionally very much less so).

[SpitfireXI]

No, Switzerland takes the cake for most annoying. They should have just joined the Axis and stop pretending otherwise.

[Michael Emrys]

In what sense "should" Switzerland joined the Axis? Would the world now be a better place if they had? For that matter, in just the narrowly selfish sense, what would they have had to gain by being on the losing side?

Michael

[Code Talker]

I rather suspect poor private Eddie Slovack ain't gonnna get onto this list.

Best use of bad judgment?

[SpitfireXI]

Remember the Nazi Swiss Gold scandal? Switzerland was funding the German war effort to the last bitter days, hid loads of Nazi's after the war and was major part of the German war industry. All of this while pretending to remain neutral. They did a good job of it and escaped Allied intervention.

[Becket]

[Arrgh. I quoted the wrong post. I meant to reply to the two Michael's exchange regarding good books on Midway. Anyway.....]

You may also want to check out Fuchida's "Midway: the Battle that Doomed Japan (the Japanese Navy's Story)".

Of course, since I'm about a month late to this thread, I'm sure someone has already suggested that. It's quite an interesting read to see the other side's perspective on the battle, though some of Fuchida's criticisms of IJN strategy are unfounded (such as his assertions that Kido Butai would have been better used to continue pounding Pearl Harbor and hunting US CVs rather than assisting in the seizure of the SRA, terrorizing the Brits in the IO, etc.).

Though I am so late to the thread, I'd to mention the efforts of Vandegrift in command of the First Marine division on Guadalcanal, eschewing textbook tactics in favor of a radical and risky defensive strategy. His use of a thin perimeter defense proved flexible enough to respond to the needs of the environment and allowed the 1st MD to repel all assaults by the IJA. His strategy ultimately resulted in victory on Guadalcanal and the turning of the tide in the Pacific.

[ May 25, 2004, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: Becket ]

[synchro]

about 200 volksturm boys and assorted wehrmacht personnel given a ****load of tellermines and Pzfausts and expected to hold a bridge in '45 from a soviet tank corps. they ran alongside these russian tanks doing their work, blowing tracks and often killing themselves in the process. about 20 finally managed to get away after destroying/immobilising scores of russian tanks around the bridge. eastern germany, i don't recall the location but i did read about it. these guys decided to hold off the soviets knowing that if they just left - which they easily could have - then the refugees making their way west would not have made it.

i believe because of the losses, the russians believed the forces at the bridge were far larger than they actually were and so halted until infantry arrived to support them.

sorry can't recall places etc but i suppose events like this occurred all thru the war from 1939 to 1945... justv another unknown soldier's tale with very few witnesses to verify it.

perhaps it was just a tale?

[tools4fools]

Originally posted by SpitfireXI:

Remember the Nazi Swiss Gold scandal? Switzerland was funding the German war effort to the last bitter days, hid loads of Nazi's after the war and was major part of the German war industry. All of this while pretending to remain neutral. They did a good job of it and escaped Allied intervention.

- What do you mean about the "Nazi Gold Scandal"?

- Could you tell how the Swiss was FUNDING the German war effort?

- Hid lots of Nazis after the war? Which ones and for how long? (I always thought they preferred some other countries way on the other side of the globe)

- Major part of the German War Industry? Hmmmppff? Yes, they sure supplied some stuff, but MAJOR?

Yes, they made their deals with the Germans not to be invaded.

Yes, there sure were a good number of Swiss people who would have liked the country to join the axis- but there were lots of people who were opposed to do so - the majority to my knowledge.

The only thing that annoys me is that there are still a lot of Swiss that their army defending the borders prevented Nazi Germany from attacking. The reason were the deals they had - there was no need to invade in my opinion.

Marcus

****

[Joachim]

Originally posted by tools4fools:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SpitfireXI:

Remember the Nazi Swiss Gold scandal? Switzerland was funding the German war effort to the last bitter days, hid loads of Nazi's after the war and was major part of the German war industry. All of this while pretending to remain neutral. They did a good job of it and escaped Allied intervention.

- What do you mean about the "Nazi Gold Scandal"?

- Could you tell how the Swiss was FUNDING the German war effort?

</font>

[tools4fools]

Originally posted by Joachim:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tools4fools:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SpitfireXI:

Remember the Nazi Swiss Gold scandal? Switzerland was funding the German war effort to the last bitter days, hid loads of Nazi's after the war and was major part of the German war industry. All of this while pretending to remain neutral. They did a good job of it and escaped Allied intervention.

- What do you mean about the "Nazi Gold Scandal"?

- Could you tell how the Swiss was FUNDING the German war effort?

</font>

[Joachim]

Originally posted by tools4fools:

And the US did accept that money? Makes them even worse than the Swiss, no?

Now guess why that scandal was settled very quick and the rich Swiss banks (an ideal target for a US jury) were not sued for billions.

Actually I would prefer to have Spitfire to comment on how he got to his point of view.

I just do not know on what facts he bases his comments.

Gruß

Joachim