Treeburst155 Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 I adjusted an ACCURATE ongoing firemission a bit to the right to the edge of the spotter's LOS. The line was green when I clicked. I know it was green because the delay was only increased 43 seconds. The rounds fell 350 meters away. I have a PBEM movie, but it doesn't prove the line was green when I clicked in the orders phase. It only proves that after a 40+ second delay my rounds were way off target. Dust/smoke is not involved. I've never seen an observed strike be anywhere near that far off, let alone a very slight adjustment to an accurate strike. I guess the movie before, showing the arty accurately coming down might help my case. The real bummer with the movie is that the last of the ammo was expended during the movie, causing the targetting line to disappear. This makes it difficult to verify LOS to the target point in the next orders phase. Keep an eye out for adjusted arty strikes going haywire after the adjustment. Pay special attention if you make an adjustment with the last few rounds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 Known problem since CMBB. BFC said that the problem is that the spotting rounds which always fall off fell out of LOS although the target point was in LOS, and then the whole barrage fell off. Worst, in CMBB this was not adjustable, only cancelabble anymore. I really hope this is fixed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted December 3, 2003 Author Share Posted December 3, 2003 But Redwolf, I'm talking about a minor adjustment of an ACCURATE ONGOING strike. I simply shifted a tiny bit for the last salvo. Are you saying these small "green line" shifts involve spotting rounds? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted December 3, 2003 Author Share Posted December 3, 2003 Redwolf, Just out of curiosity I tried to duplicate the CMBB bug you described above. I couldn't do it. I called in a strike on a ridge at a visible point. The spotting round fell on the other side, out of LOS. The strike was on target. In any case, my CMAK arty issue involves adjusting ongoing strikes, not calling in fresh strikes. It's a time consuming thing to test, even if you have an editor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 The problem you describe is definitely different than the CMBB bug Redwolf alludes to, at least as I recall the discussion about it. As noted, I recall it the CMBB 'bug' (there was some argument as to whether it was a bug or a feature) involved initial Arty barrage plots where the spotter had LOS to the aim point, but not to the spotting round(s). I think I remember Charles or one of the BFC folks posting something to the effect that this was supposed to reflect the fact the an FO would have difficulty calling Arty in on a spot where he had very marginal LOS. At any rate, I don't recall any discussions in CMBB of Arty fire adjustments (as opposed to initial plots) going wildly astray so long as there was a good green 'adjust fire' targeting line. I dunno. I guess mostly I'm just bumping this thread because if the bug can be replicated, I think it's an important one to fix. I can see no reason why a small adjustment in Aim Point should send a barrage 350m off target. Cheers, YD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted December 3, 2003 Author Share Posted December 3, 2003 I've reviewed the three PBEM files involved. I can find no possible reason for the arty strike to go haywire. I would send the files off to Madmatt; but there is a critical orders phase between the two movie files. Matt could plot that arty shift all day and not get what I got. Here's the sequence of events from my PBEM perspective: Movie only file: arty rounds falling on target. Status at end of movie was "firing". Orders only file: arty adjusted small "green line" amount. Status changed to "52 seconds". Movie/Orders file: arty rounds fall 350 meters away in a nice tight group. EDIT: I'll bet it happened because the strike was in "Firing" status at the end of a movie, rather than giving a countdown to the next salvo. To test I would need to get a spotter into "firing" status at the end of a movie. It might not be too easy to do that on purpose. [ December 03, 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted December 3, 2003 Author Share Posted December 3, 2003 It was easy to get "Firing" status at the end of a movie; but I couldn't replicate the "bug" by doing so. It may have to do with adjusting the last salvo available and/or rounds falling after the 60 second mark. Bringing all these conditions together on purpose would surely be difficult. I think this one will not be easily replicated. I'd bet we see an occasional thread about this over the months as it happens to people; but they won't be able to reproduce it. My two movies will show it happening however. That's something at least. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 Originally posted by redwolf: Known problem since CMBB. BFC said that the problem is that the spotting rounds which always fall off fell out of LOS although the target point was in LOS, and then the whole barrage fell off. Worst, in CMBB this was not adjustable, only cancelabble anymore. I really hope this is fixed. I believe it was fixed, in the 1.03 patch. What Treebursts is seeing may or may not be a bug though. Even a simple adjustment still requires the weapon to be re-adjusted by hand and mistakes do happen, although it would not seem to be a common occurance. I will run some tests on my own and see what I can come up with. Madmatt 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted December 3, 2003 Author Share Posted December 3, 2003 I can't reproduce it, Matt. I can show you one instance of it over the course of two consecutive movies. That's all. Thanks for looking into it though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 Folks, the bug appeared when both spotting rounds fell out of LOS although the aim point was in LOS. Obviously that takes some time to reproduce since you need back luck for both spotting rounds to fall out of LOS when you were targetting in LOS. Usually at least one will fall where you can see it. Adjusting or new fire both trigger new spotting rounds and hence both should be subject to the same problem if there is still one. Idea for reproducing: build terrain wil one lane of open ground deep into woods, so that there is really only one line of sight. Then target along that path. Chances are good that both spotting rounds fall into the woods then. BTW, the real bug was not that the fire fell off target. The real bug was (is?) that under the conditions above a new adjustment would not adjust the fire, you would have to cancel for a turn and then start from scratch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 You know, if it is a bug, it could even have been caused by something unrelated to the artillery. That makes it even harder to track down. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Osborne Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 While were on the subject of Arty issues. I’m also playing the CMAK demo Frühlingswind with Treeburst155. I have the 81mm spotter with a good LOS to the target. It is an area target. The first round was for spotting. The next salvo of rounds was way off about 300 to 400 meters to the left of the target. . Now the spotter was tired, would that have any impact on his ability’s to adjust rounds? Even after two turns he was still tired and the rounds where falling in the same locations about 300 to 400 meters to the left of the target. Treeburst155 help me out if I’m not asking this right Just to inform. I had no problem with the 105mm spotter except the same issue that Treeburst155 has. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 I recall the artillery had been purposefully made more problematic in CMBB as a response to artillery fire in CMBO that seemed to be able to follow you around the map like a buzzing mosquito. Maybe I've just been conditioned by CMBB for disappointment, but its usually more of a shock to see my rounds landing where they aught than to see them landing 350 meter off! Still, I haven't had a simple fire adjustment go wacky on me in CMAK yet. If its a bug its an inconsistent bug. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 Originally posted by John Osborne: While were on the subject of Arty issues. Im also playing the CMAK demo Frühlingswind with Treeburst155. I have the 81mm spotter with a good LOS to the target. It is an area target. The first round was for spotting. The next salvo of rounds was way off about 300 to 400 meters to the left of the target. . Now the spotter was tired, would that have any impact on his abilitys to adjust rounds? Even after two turns he was still tired and the rounds where falling in the same locations about 300 to 400 meters to the left of the target. Treeburst155 help me out if Im not asking this right Just to inform. I had no problem with the 105mm spotter except the same issue that Treeburst155 has. Holy cow bananas. Folks, this off-target barrage is a documented features as of the CMBB manual. The bug, if there is still one, is that certain kinds of off-target barrages cannot be adjusted as the manual claims, they stay on the same off-target location. See my description above for the findings of our last investigation how an unadjustable barrage comes together. For reproducing, see my post above. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted December 3, 2003 Author Share Posted December 3, 2003 Redwolf, I tried your test in CMBB. After six attempts I was unable to make the spotting rounds fall out of LOS, or even very far off target. I think maybe they fixed that problem by putting the spotting rounds on target for observed fire missions. If not, I had a good run of luck, which is quite possible. John, It's hard to say what's going on with your arty strikes. Possible arty bugs are tough to pin down because they often span multiple turns (multiple orders phases). Also, player error or misunderstanding of the way arty works prompts some bogus bug alerts. I know I've done that a few times. [ December 03, 2003, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted December 3, 2003 Author Share Posted December 3, 2003 Redwolf, I created a keyhole arty spotter situation between two tall buildings with woods everywhere. I'm almost positive both spotting rounds were out of LOS of the spotter. The strike was accurate (so were the spotting rounds). If your spotter can see the target point, he WILL hit it without adjusting, whether or not he sees the spotting rounds. At least, this has been the case in my experience with CMBB. My CMAK issue will remain a mystery I think. If it crops up often enough, it will eventually be pinned down. If it appears infrequently, why worry about it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 TB155, I've seen the same problem you mentioned in your first post, in Fruhwillingswind(sp?). It affected my German 81mm Mortar spotter. Haven't seen it again since, but the time it did occur, it didn't matter what I did (adjusting, cancelling and restarting, cancelling and targetting somewhere completely different), the 81mm rounds came down in the wrong place. I mentioned this in one of the other threads here. Of course, it was against the AI, so no save files Regards JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted December 3, 2003 Author Share Posted December 3, 2003 Jon S, Very interesting. Combine that with John Osborne's strange arty strike that I saw while PBEMing him, and we may have ourselves a tough little bug here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Osborne Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 Originally posted by Treeburst155: Jon S, Very interesting. Combine that with John Osborne's strange arty strike that I saw while PBEMing him, and we may have ourselves a tough little bug here. Concerning that CMAK is being shipped out today. Should we pursue it with the game instead with the demo and see if we still have the same problem. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agua Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 Originally posted by redwolf: The real bug was (is?) that under the conditions above a new adjustment would not adjust the fire, you would have to cancel for a turn and then start from scratch. That is the bug regarding adjustments that I remembered in CMBB, which is something different from what is being described here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 §?s»riginally posted by Treeburst155: If your spotter can see the target point, he WILL hit it without adjusting, whether or not he sees the spotting rounds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Crowley Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Same problem -I think - playing the demo of LOD SMALL SPOILER . . . . . . . . . American mortar FO has clear LOS towards Church area (on US right flank); targets same; spotting round clearly lands nearby. Some eighty odd mortar rounds land, on the next turn, on the complete opposite side of the town, right over on the US left flank! Some mustaken correction! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 If you targetted the upper level of the church the spotting round probably fell to the ground you could no observe. So far so documented behaviour. The bug-relevant question is: could you correct it by adjusting? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tank Ace Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 in fruhlingswind, my artillery never lands where i tell it to. it lands on the other side of the damn map. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I had consistently good luck with my American 75mm FO, including adjustments. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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