Kingfish Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Zetterling's TO&E chart for 21st Panzer shows each PzGr regiment as having "four Reihenwerfer auf So", and a google search revealed this nifty little bugger: Apparently it is a French HT mounting a rack of 16 French 81mm mortars. Nice. However, it also lists the 10./Pz.Art.Rgt. 155 as having "Nebelwerfer (Sf)" but gives no other information. Were these Reihenwerfers or Maultiers? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 They fired 120mm rockets, 48 to a launcher, from a French halftrack chassis. Details - Vehicles of this type were found in the 10th company of Panzerartillerie-Regiment 155. It is an ex-French Citroën "Unic" P107 half-track fitted with a rail launcher for firing 48 120mm rockets. Bundesarchiv photo from page 15, 39-45 Magazine, Number 1, December 1983, Editions Heimdal. Link to photo, bottom of the page - http://spearhead1944.com/gerpg/gerpics/image8.htm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted March 3, 2006 Author Share Posted March 3, 2006 Excellent. Thank you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Originally posted by JasonC: They fired 120mm rockets, 48 to a launcher, from a French halftrack chassis. 16 x 8cm according to Chamberlain & Doyle. Page 224. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 In fact there were 2 different types ( both mounted on French HT basis ) : one with rocket lauching ramp ( 48 x 120 mm ) one with mortar ramp ( 16 or 20 x 81 mm ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Correct. The 81mm were in each panzergrenadier regiment. The 120mm MRLs were in the artillery regiment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 No, according to C&D the rockets were 8cm, probably Russian 82mm M-8, which would explain the Stalin Organ nickname in the photo/Jasons link. ROCKET launcher rails are listed as (oops) 24 (not 16). C&D say they were used by the SS, not Heer. Look at the photos - those little rockets aren't 120mm. Count the rails - there are 24, not 48. (Unless them mount them over-and-under, but I haven't seen any evidence of that, although, OTOH, the Russians do seem to have done that) There is an additional comment: "After the war, a French experimental establishment showed an armoured Somua mounting the 15cm Panzerwerfer 42, similar to the Maultier." [ March 04, 2006, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: JonS ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Plus, those rockets don't look like any German rockets I have seen used by ground forces before. They do look a lot like Soviet rockets. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Apparently, people here aren't very clear on the new 21st Panzer division as reconstructed in France, after the previous one was destroyed in North Africa. The idea was to equip it as much as possible with captured equipment available in France. It was a highly unusual division, full of ad hoc weaponry. It had 35 Somuas in its panzer regiment (along with more conventional Panzer IVs to be sure), 12 Lorraine chassis "Schepplers" as its SP 150s (in place of Hummels) and another 12 SP sIG on the same (in place of Bisons, in the Pz Gdr regiments), 24 SP 105s on Lorraine chassis in the artillery regiment (used like Wespes) and 24 more on Hotchkiss chassis in the "StuG" battalion (meant to be used like StuHs), along with 17 SP PAK 40 again on Hotchkiss chassis (to be used like StuGs or Marders), ad hoc flakwagens on French halftrack chassis - the same type used for the ad hoc MRLs under discussion, two batteries of towed Russian 122mm howitzers in the artillery regiment... Expect nothing normal. It was a whole division of French "funnies". I doubt there were more than 4 of these in existence, ever. Might they be Russian 82mm MRLs on French halftracks? Sure. But they might be something rarer, it wouldn't surprise me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 A few points. The rockets shown can't possibly be 12cm class (M-13 "132" mm), but 8cm (M-8 80ish mm) not only seems reasonable, but fits with my memory of their Russian cousin. Didn't get an accurate rail count, but I can confirm that pictures exist showing over and under Katyusha configurations, at least for the M-8. The rig shown, given the gap between the stacked launchers, would appear to be able to have two M-8 equivalents launched per rail. Some German officer, whose name escapes me, had family contacts with Alkett and was the driving force behind making all those conversions from captured French vehicles, an action for which I believe he was decorated. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Per the Almark FIELD ROCKET EQUIPMENT OF THE GERMAN ARMY 1939-1945 by Terry Gander, pp. 41-42, the presumptive 82mm rocket is actually designated 8 cm Raketensprenggranate, has a true diameter of 78mm, is derived from an antiaircraft projectile (which highly resembles the M-8), has a warhead (weight not listed) with a burster charge of 610 grams of TNT, and a range of 5.3 km. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 The German officer was Major (?) Becker, of Becker's Baustab. ISTR these funnies were also called Becker's circus at some stage. He got into the conversion business very early, see e.g. the Schnelle Abteilung of 227. ID in Army Group North in 1942. Linky All the best andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Originally posted by JasonC: Apparently, people here aren't very clear on the new 21st Panzer division as reconstructed in France, after the previous one was destroyed in North Africa. The idea was to equip it as much as possible with captured equipment available in France. It was a highly unusual division, full of ad hoc weaponry. Would this be an outgrowth of the belated German mobilization for total war after Stalingrad (as recently discussed at some length), or more in the vein of coopting captured armaments a la the early war Czech "T" series panzers and captured Soviet ordnance. I suppose what I'm asking more broadly is, was the German propensity to incorporate conquered/ captured armaments a manifestation of some "top down" policy pursued by the Reich armaments ministries, or more "bottom up" initiatives that were (reluctantly?) approved to make ends meet? Or a bit of both? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Kingfish and Troops, Another long night, but I have something to show for it: a dispositive photo of the 8 cm Raketen-Vielfachwerfer "Himmlerorgel" ("Himmler Organ"--nickname for this SS only weapon on the Somua armored halftrack) showing that the rails did indeed take one rocket on top and one below. In the shot on page 331 of Gander and Chamberlain's WEAPONS OF THE THIRD REICH the four rockets making the rightmost stack (viewed from the rear) are clearly evidenced by their fins. 24 rails x 2 rockets per rail = 48 rockets. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 LLF - on use of captured material in general, it was more a simple opportunity. They captured a lot, in France and in Russia. It was entirely servicable so they put it to use. But 21 PD, that late, and using captured vehicles in particular, those are a bit different. 21 PD was reformed from a cadre not with the division when it was lost in North Africa. It was formed for the fight in France, while in France. It wasn't something anybody had planned on a year before, not expecting that particular PD to be lost. Either they could divert material from other PDs or SS PDs forming, or do what they actually did. Some of it was local initiative too, no doubt. The result was well above standard TOEs in terms of the number of vehicles. (Most of the arty SP, for example). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 On a related note, can anyone provide info on the two types of assault guns that were found in StuG.Abt. 200, the assault gun battalion of the 21st Panzer? Zetterling lists each Kompanie as having "four 7,5 cm Pak 40 auf Ho, six 10,5 cm le.FH 16 auf Ho", but a google search draws a blank. In terms of CM eqivalent, would these two types resemble more the StuG/StuH series, or Marder/Wespe? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Kingfish, Arguing by similarity, I'd vote for the latter. All of the Lorraine chassis adaptations (ref. the Selbstfahrlafette Lorraine pub I mentioned earlier) have box type open top armor arrays of no thicker than 10mm plate thickness. The pub I have specifically lists a Marder I (Pz. Jag Lr.S fur 7.5cm Pak 40/1) and a Gw Lr.S fur LeFH 18/3. Since I know for sure that the German 105 howitzer was an Le FH 18, Zetterling has a typo in the weapon name. I don't know what an "auf Ho" is (watch out for wags, though), but I don't see how the AFVs could possibly be StuG/StuH armor class or configured. Will see if I can find anything else. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Kingfish, Both are respectivly Marder/Wespe equivalant ( Pak40 and LeFH18 mounted on adapted Lorraine and/or Hotchkiss chassis with open top ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 Thanks for clearing that one up. Now, while you're still here, how about one more? Again, from the motley crew that was known as 21st Panzer. The 2./Aufkl.Abt. 21 shows as having "14. s.Pz.Sp.Wg (six of them with 7,5 cm gun)., 16 le.SPW" I am specifically interested in the 7,5 cm equipped vehicles. Were these the short barreled 251/9s or 234/3s? Or the long barreled 234/4s? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Panzerspähwagen would normally be an 8-wheeler, not a halftrack. So my guess is the heavies would be short-barrelled 75s, while the light ones were any sort of PSW with a 20mm gun, German or captured. A guess, mind you. All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 The problem with the 21 PzD is that you'd never know exactly what each Co used :eek: this is Major Becker's Zoo laboratory, so a lot of conversions from french tanks / halftracks were done, not always mentioned in the ToE, especially some ad-hoc assemblies like Pak40 or Pak36r mounted on Somua S307 ( that look more or less like a SPW251/22 ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Kingfish, Please check your E-mail. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Kingfish, Did you get the E-mail I sent? Used your profile E-mail address. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 This was taken by a Calgary Highlander (2nd Cdn Div) in Jul or Aug 1944 - I suspect this would be a 21 Pz Div tank? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Michael Dorosh, Interesting picture! Never saw that one before, but there is a fascinating combat account in Marshall's NIGHT DROP in which exactly such a vehicle tangles with a roadblock manned by bazooka armed paratroopers. Years ago, at the now defunct Museum of the World Wars in Orange County, California, I got to see an FT-17 which took a close range direct hit from a WW I German 15cm howitzer (also in the collection). The impact basically ripped the forward third of the upper hull plate clean off. On a related note, last night Turner Classic Movies ran the 1943 Technicolor "Salute to the Marines" starring Wallace Beery. A bunch of FT-17s played the part of Japanese tanks, ands in a weird foreshadowing of "Midway" decades later, a slew of AT-6s bore Japanese camouflage paint and markings. The Marines had real Vultee Vindicator dive bombers. The movie offered some interesting CM conversion possibilities and was a real treat visually. Kingfish, Glad you got what I sent and that you found it useful. Am clueless as to why both of us get that crazy illegal parenthesis in HTML message. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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