1 : 1 tank crews?

[jim crowley]

I wonder if CMx2 will portray AFV crews in the same manner as Squads?

Not so much when they bail, but when they are manning the vehicles. So when a tank takes a hit, the affected crew member is identified and the appropriate consequences are suffered (gunner - unable to fire, etc)

And will hits on tanks be more precisely defined, so that a front upper hull left penetration is more likely to injure/kill the driver and so on.

[Sirocco]

The response when I raised the issue was 1:1 applies to everything.

[aka_tom_w]

I think theoretically everything you asked is yes...

I think Steve said mostly what you are asking is what they are planning to design and develop into the game code.

Yes I think is the answer to all of your questions.

BUT exactly how it will actually work in the game is any ones guess :confused: .

-tom w

Originally posted by jim crowley:

I wonder if CMx2 will portray AFV crews in the same manner as Squads?

Not so much when they bail, but when they are manning the vehicles. So when a tank takes a hit, the affected crew member is identified and the appropriate consequences are suffered (gunner - unable to fire, etc)

And will hits on tanks be more precisely defined, so that a front upper hull left penetration is more likely to injure/kill the driver and so on.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I do hope that a tank that has it's driver eat tungsten won't remain driverless for the duration. Others should take over his station in a minute or so. I'd be really lame to be unable to move or shoot a perfectly OK tank just because a vital crewman got done in.

CM already fakes this by the shocked state which not only portrays panic but also abstractly simulates crewman being hauled from their station and replaced.

Oh joy for the day when a sole surviving crewman continually moves stations to operate the tank.

[Gpig]

I'm guessing they'd keep it the way it is (with regards to crew members taking over the stations of others). Probably no need to worry about that.

Now, can we get crew commanders firing at infantry with their sten guns?

Or dismounting to scout terrain?

(I can see myself finishing the orders phase in about an hour and a half.)

Gpig

[flamingknives]

Grenades out of the hatch would be fun, too. (and an often used technique, at least by the British armour regiments)

[Soddball]

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

I do hope that a tank that has it's driver eat tungsten won't remain driverless for the duration. Others should take over his station in a minute or so. I'd be really lame to be unable to move or shoot a perfectly OK tank just because a vital crewman got done in.

CM already fakes this by the shocked state which not only portrays panic but also abstractly simulates crewman being hauled from their station and replaced.

Oh joy for the day when a sole surviving crewman continually moves stations to operate the tank.

I've been reading Stuart Hills' "By Tank Into Normandy", which is an account of his time with the Sherwood Rangers from D-Day until mid-1945.

What struck me is the number of times they baled from a tank that had been struck by a single round. It was almost an automatic reaction - round penetrates and kills crewmember x, remainder of crew leap from hatches and run for their lives.

At no time did I read "We scraped the mangled lumps of Willikins from the drivers seat, then Hodgson grabbed the wheel and we were off, fighting like billy-o".

Judging from this book alone, my impression of tank combat would be:

1)Tank comes under fire. Round penetrates.

2)Crew bail and cower pathetically hoping nobody shoots them.

3)If, after a few minutes, fighting dies down and tank shows no signs of brewing up or continuing to be a target, crew remounts tank.

Hills spent some months with one crewmember missing from his tank after a round penetrated a Sherman he was commanding and killed (IIRC) the loader.

Edited to improve the wossname, thing.

[ March 11, 2005, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: Soddball ]

[Battlefront.com]

At no time did I read "We scraped the mangled lumps of Willikins from the drivers seat, then Hodgson grabbed the wheel and we were off, fighting like billy-o".

Soddball is quite correct here. Firstly, if a round gets in and messes up a crew member it very likely causes damage to whatever system that crew member was manning. It's not like a roun gets into the crew compartment by magic... no... it has to smash through something. Once inside it usually does more damage in its attempt to exit (which in some cases it could do).

Spalling is another story. That is the more likely case where someone gets incapcitated and the crew is still able to work around the problem given a little crew shuffling (if necessary).

Another thing to consider is the average time a crew has to bail. I forget what it is, but it is measured in seconds. Like 5 or so. That means the crew is more likely to bail first, then figure out what to do.

In CMx1 we did not allow crews to abandon and reman, therefore we generally kept the crew in the tank instead of doing the realistic thing which was likely to bail then reman. In CMx2 we are allowing bailing and remanning, so the likely thing you'll see in CMx2 is a hit, the crew hopping out, then perhaps going back in. Of course this is all situationally dependent, since if the driver was spared and the tank is still running he'd likely try to get to saftey first. That sort of thing.

Oh... and keep in mind that many tank models do not allow pass through between compartments. Or at least not easily (i.e. turret has to be perfectly aligned). So if the driver is hit a bail out is likely necessary in any event.

Steve

[aka_tom_w]

OK thanks Steve that sounds good.

How about "Pass through" like the 88mm round can go straight thru the light allied Stuart IN and OUT and then impact another tank and/or building? IIRC this is not modeled in CMx1

Please

-tom w

[aka_tom_w]

Equally good is "Hell Has No Heroes"

Its a true story of a DD-Amphibious Sherm that came ashore during the first wave of D-Day.

They lost their bow gunner (BOG) early and often. To be honest from reading that book I would conclude most Sherm's after D-day were routinely undermaned and without the Bow gunner.

The standard crew seamed to always be 4 guys.

My understanding from reading the book was that a BOG was a luxury and you were lucky if you could get one. In the book they tell of a french resistance fighter begging to take the BOG seat and fill in so he could provide local intel and navigation aid to the crew. They let ride with then for a while through France, and tried to hide his presence.

Hell Has No Heroes is the best book I have ever read about the real life action of a tank crew in WWII. THe names were fictionalized and the book is NOT written like a "war history document" as it reads like a GOOD novel, but you can tell for sure that the guy that wrote the novel lived through the action of WWII in a DD Sherm from start to finish, and he was one lucky fellow.

-tom w

Originally posted by Soddball:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

I do hope that a tank that has it's driver eat tungsten won't remain driverless for the duration. Others should take over his station in a minute or so. I'd be really lame to be unable to move or shoot a perfectly OK tank just because a vital crewman got done in.

CM already fakes this by the shocked state which not only portrays panic but also abstractly simulates crewman being hauled from their station and replaced.

Oh joy for the day when a sole surviving crewman continually moves stations to operate the tank.

I've been reading Stuart Hills' "By Tank Into Normandy", which is an account of his time with the Sherwood Rangers from D-Day until mid-1945.

What struck me is the number of times they baled from a tank that had been struck by a single round. It was almost an automatic reaction - round penetrates and kills crewmember x, remainder of crew leap from hatches and run for their lives.

At no time did I read "We scraped the mangled lumps of Willikins from the drivers seat, then Hodgson grabbed the wheel and we were off, fighting like billy-o".

Judging from this book alone, my impression of tank combat would be:

1)Tank comes under fire. Round penetrates.

2)Crew bail and cower pathetically hoping nobody shoots them.

3)If, after a few minutes, fighting dies down and tank shows no signs of brewing up or continuing to be a target, crew remounts tank.

Hills spent some months with one crewmember missing from his tank after a round penetrated a Sherman he was commanding and killed (IIRC) the loader.

Edited to improve the wossname, thing. </font>

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

In CMx2 we are allowing bailing and remanning, so the likely thing you'll see in CMx2 is a hit, the crew hopping out, then perhaps going back in. Of course this is all situationally dependent, since if the driver was spared and the tank is still running he'd likely try to get to saftey first. That sort of thing.

Oh... and keep in mind that many tank models do not allow pass through between compartments. Or at least not easily (i.e. turret has to be perfectly aligned). So if the driver is hit a bail out is likely necessary in any event.

Steve

Nice little bone there. . . sounds great!

Only thing I would add, which I'm sure you've already thought of, is that some tank designs have duplicate controls for 2nd bow compartment crewman (Bow MG operator, asst. driver, whatever)to allow him to drive the vehicle if need be.

There's a great first-person recount that's often aired on the History Channel of a T-34 crewman whose tank was hit by a shell, which wounded the driver and the TC, and he took over the controls to drive the tank to safety.

Mind you, he didn't try to keep fighting, he just got the tank, and his wounded crewmates, everybody out of harms way and to the rear. . .

Cheers,

YD

[aka_tom_w]

Sorry

Could not help my self

INSTANT online review of

"By Tank Into Normandy"....

A good tanker's tale, February 20, 2004

Reviewer: A reader (rank it with 4 stars out of 5 ****)

First off I should say this book probably deserves five stars just for its very existence. Tankers from WW2 do not seem to have written very much and any works are sorely needed. Perhaps the casualty rate for tankers was too high. Anyway, Mr Hills delivers a solid account of his time as a tank and scout platoon leader (Sherman and Stuart tanks) with the British Sherwood Rangers. Mr Hills saw considerable action from D-Day itself through to the end of war in Germany. Overall he does a fine job of describing his experiences.

What keeps the book form earning five stars is that, first of all, he skimps on the details of most of his actions as well as his equipment and day-to-day duties. Mr Hills had a real opportunity to inform the reader of what it was really like to be a tanker. Unfortunately he just does not go into enough detail. He doesn't even tell you what versions of the Sherman he was on (and every German gun is an 88mm). A couple of his battle accounts approach a fair level of detail but always end-up just shy of really letting you know what happened and he rarely makes you feel like you are reliving the action with him.

My second complaint is that Mr Hills is British and unfortunately, for readers not from the UK, writes like one. What I mean is that he uses lots of references to all things British that are simply lost on the non-British reader. Starting with his childhood school experiences right through to various pop-culture references he simply assumes the reader understands all things British. This is not a huge distraction from the book but does add to the somewhat distant feel too it (along with the semi-formal, British stiff-upper-lip thing). This tendency combined with the lack of overall detail makes for a less than stellar read and is certainly history's loss.

Overall Mr Hill does do a good job and the book is interesting and informative. The problem is simply that there are so few tankers' tales that it is a shame he did not take the book the extra mile.

Soddball can you also give us your review or thoughts on the book.....

-tom w

Originally posted by Soddball:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

I've been reading Stuart Hills' "By Tank Into Normandy", which is an account of his time with the Sherwood Rangers from D-Day until mid-1945.

What struck me is the number of times they baled from a tank that had been struck by a single round. It was almost an automatic reaction - round penetrates and kills crewmember x, remainder of crew leap from hatches and run for their lives.

At no time did I read "We scraped the mangled lumps of Willikins from the drivers seat, then Hodgson grabbed the wheel and we were off, fighting like billy-o".

Judging from this book alone, my impression of tank combat would be:

1)Tank comes under fire. Round penetrates.

2)Crew bail and cower pathetically hoping nobody shoots them.

3)If, after a few minutes, fighting dies down and tank shows no signs of brewing up or continuing to be a target, crew remounts tank.

Hills spent some months with one crewmember missing from his tank after a round penetrated a Sherman he was commanding and killed (IIRC) the loader.

Edited to improve the wossname, thing. [/QB]</font>

[Soddball]

I loved the book. Part of the reason is that Stuart Hills lives (lived?) about 2 miles away from me, so it's a very 'local' book. I know the schools and towns he talks about.

I agree with the reviewer that every AT gun was an '88' and that his descriptions of battles can feel 'imprecise'.

Stuart Hills though, seems to have written like a TC. When TCs received a new Sherman they didn't know what armour thickness it had to the millimetre or what the angle was. They knew whether it was reliable, whether it stalled alot, whether it was a pain to wash down or whether it was difficult to get in and out of, whether the gun was good.

In short, he wrote it as though he was there. For example, his troop was called on to support an infantry push. The infantry were bogged down. His troop attacked the German positions supported by infantry, and then withdrew. So I feel that the author's being a tiny bit unfair with his criticisms, but I can see why he made them.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

In CMx2 we are allowing bailing and remanning, so the likely thing you'll see in CMx2 is a hit, the crew hopping out, then perhaps going back in. Of course this is all situationally dependent, since if the driver was spared and the tank is still running he'd likely try to get to saftey first. That sort of thing.

Woohoo! That sounds wonderful. So, this would also open up the possibility of voluntary bail outs for scouting purposes? Anyway, totally great news, finally a good reason to put a few extra rounds in an abandoned tank in a single scenario.

[jim crowley]

Try also these personal accounts from tank-men:

“Armoured Guardsmen” by Robert Boscowen

“Tank” and “Tanks, Advance” by Ken Tout

“Tank Twins” by Stephen Dyson

“Armoured Odyssey” by Stuart Hamilton

(All from the British viewpoint.)

The primary conclusion from these and other personal reminiscences within other, broader scope, histories is that crews bailed, usually on first hit, and……stayed bailed.

Sometimes, but rarely it seems, did they re-enter the tank; usually to return the vehicle to “base”.

Swapping positions after crew injuries may have happened but I cannot recall having ever read of such an occurrence.

[DrD]

Yeah, as Steve says, tanks were alot more fragile.

I just finished re-reading Keegan's "6 armies in Normandy," and he relates a story in which a British tank that had its gun hit by a German tiger at short range. Out of options, he rammed the tiger. The German crew and the British crew then bailed out! According to Keegan "a local truce was effected," and both crews hung out in a foxhole before they remanned their vehicles and drove off. Not at the same time of course!

So in war all kinds of weird stuff happens. Tales of heroism, such as a driver going into the turret to fire the gun, are more often told and preserved than tales of the common events of war, such as British tankers in the desert bailing out of tanks that hadn't even been hit when coming under fire of German 88's.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />At no time did I read "We scraped the mangled lumps of Willikins from the drivers seat, then Hodgson grabbed the wheel and we were off, fighting like billy-o".

Soddball is quite correct here. Firstly, if a round gets in and messes up a crew member it very likely causes damage to whatever system that crew member was manning. It's not like a roun gets into the crew compartment by magic... no... it has to smash through something. Once inside it usually does more damage in its attempt to exit (which in some cases it could do).

Spalling is another story. That is the more likely case where someone gets incapcitated and the crew is still able to work around the problem given a little crew shuffling (if necessary).

Another thing to consider is the average time a crew has to bail. I forget what it is, but it is measured in seconds. Like 5 or so. That means the crew is more likely to bail first, then figure out what to do.

In CMx1 we did not allow crews to abandon and reman, therefore we generally kept the crew in the tank instead of doing the realistic thing which was likely to bail then reman. In CMx2 we are allowing bailing and remanning, so the likely thing you'll see in CMx2 is a hit, the crew hopping out, then perhaps going back in. Of course this is all situationally dependent, since if the driver was spared and the tank is still running he'd likely try to get to saftey first. That sort of thing.

Oh... and keep in mind that many tank models do not allow pass through between compartments. Or at least not easily (i.e. turret has to be perfectly aligned). So if the driver is hit a bail out is likely necessary in any event.

Steve </font>

[Soddball]

Originally posted by Lars:

Just to throw a little complexity into it.

What about sniper fire? Right now the TC always gets it in the neck. Any chance we get somebody else to stick their head up? Like say, the driver?

Nobody bails out of a tank when there's a sniper around. So the crew has to crawl down to the driver compartment, if possible as you say, and wrestle the body out the hatch. We're talking a pretty good delay here. Or they just sit there immobilized and shoot back.

Either way, would be great fun to peg off a tank driver on a bridge. Especially if the crew can't replace him.

Speaking only about the one book I mentioned above, Hills doesn't mention that the rest of his crew were ever shot like that. He mentions that he developed a crouching technique as TC, which made his legs ache but meant that only the top of his head and his eyes were sticking out of the top of the tank.

Not saying it didn't happen, just that in the sole book I've read it isn't mentioned.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Soddball:

Speaking only about the one book I mentioned above, Hills doesn't mention that the rest of his crew were ever shot like that. He mentions that he developed a crouching technique as TC, which made his legs ache but meant that only the top of his head and his eyes were sticking out of the top of the tank.

Not saying it didn't happen, just that in the sole book I've read it isn't mentioned.

Well, he didn't develop that technique to hide from a 88 round.

[flamingknives]

Regarding`bow gunners, it seems likely that attrition of the crewman in the BOG seat was less common than attrition of other crewmembers (like the TC) and the BOG got shifted to another position to cover for having a 4 man crew. After all, what did he do in the front? British armour went for a loader/operator, IIRC, so he wasn't even a radio Op, like in German tanks.

[Soddball]

Originally posted by Lars:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Soddball:

Speaking only about the one book I mentioned above, Hills doesn't mention that the rest of his crew were ever shot like that. He mentions that he developed a crouching technique as TC, which made his legs ache but meant that only the top of his head and his eyes were sticking out of the top of the tank.

Not saying it didn't happen, just that in the sole book I've read it isn't mentioned.

Well, he didn't develop that technique to hide from a 88 round. </font>

[Gpig]

Soddball. I have to chime in with my recent readings on the matter. These mirror your findings.

I've just finished The South Alberta Regiment's WWII history. By Graves.

Great read. And you are right. I never read a single instance of a tank crew switching seats to keep a tank operational. If the tanks was penetrated, it was quickly evactuated. (THe logic being that another round was soon going to be on it's way, and very likely that sherman was going to brew up. Get out while the gettin's good.)

This should be interesting . . .

[Lars]

Originally posted by Soddball:

Hills was the TC, not the driver.

I realize that. Forgot the smiley.

Been doing a quick check around and haven't found an incidence of a driver getting hit by sniper fire yet. Will keep looking.

But we know the driver had to stick his head up sometime. Seen to many pics of them driving around like that for one of them not to get his head blown off in an ambush.

And the bow gunner was usually an assistant driver. You don't end up short the bow gunner/assistant driver unless something happened to the original one.

Question though, was the bow gunner usually kicked upstairs to replace the dead TC?

[RMC]

Originally posted by Lars:

Question though, was the bow gunner usually kicked upstairs to replace the dead TC?

I think that would be an odd choice. Normally the gunner is second to the TC in seniority (at least in modern US Army usage) and experience. The question is whether it is more important to have a better TC or better gunner.

I would think the rotation would be gunner to TC, loader to gunner and bow mG/radio op to loader.

[Wartgamer]

Typically Drivers and Gunners become TCs.

I have read of many remaning of AFVs as far as the Germans. I have even read of partial bailouts. The driver and BMG/RO stay in the vehicle while the turret crew has tossed over the side.

Germans emphasised bail out drills. It was almost like pushing a button and the crew was on the ground. Its saved many lives.

Sometimes bailouts were due to smoke shells or stalling in a bad situation. The crew realizes once outside the vehicle that they bailed premature and get back in.