Sigh...The forgotten Pacific Front

[Ant]

And a flexible engine design is only helpful after one has completed the many hundreds of hours of research into TO&E, vehicle specs, orders of battle, uniforms and infantry arms, etc. If the developers are not inherently interested in the Pacific Theater they probably have not done any research into these factors, and starting research from scratch in an area they are not interested in seems pretty unlikely to me.

I agree that BFC don't seem interested in doing it. I was thinking more of modders. CMBO has been modded for the pacific and I was assuming that the proposed more flexible nature of CMX2 would make this easier for modders to do.....Of course as nobody knows anything about CMX2 yet I could be wrong

[MikeT]

On the Pacific CMBO mod. I have redone it for CMMOS even adding some new things and cleaning things up.

Right now the plan is for CM Mod Database to host the entire CMMOS/CMBO revamp project. I got some work for The Database this weekend so maybe in a week or so you might be able to download the Pacific

However if anyone has the ability to post pictures on the forum I can send to them a jpg of the Pacific CMMOS rule-set so you can have a look at it. I am rather proud of the project it was the last major part of the revamp I did.

MikeT

[Mailer]

These are wonderful replies. Some of you are VERY knowledgable.

Yes, many of the islands are too big for CM, but it is handled just like the others in CM series, you never played the whole Operation Cobra, you played various engagements within.

Most of the reviews I have read with the boys at Battlefront said they didn't feel the engine was equiped, but maybe with a lot of response for the community, they can be convinced it is right for the cm mission.

I mean, if the customers are there, why not make it.

And I agree with one of the posts above, in that, I'm not looking to bust the Battlefront boys chops either, if they don't want to do a Pacific Theater, then whatever they are doing instead will be just as good and will get my purchasing dollars.

In fact, I'm a huge fan of another type of wargaming that is HUGELY neglected, and that is MODERN WARFARE.

Damn it, it's hard to find wargames that cover modern warfare. I am aware of TacOps, but its not available in stores--and its pretty hard to sneakily purchase a game on the credit card without the wife noticing--hehe. Just kidding about that, I intend to buy Tacops as soon as I have some extra cash handy.

Kyushu--of course you're right, I actually knew that, but I just phrased it wrong cause it was late at night when I wrote it.

Luzon--Thanks for filling me in, wasn't certain exactly what Luzon was.

I think that many of the latest responses did a bettter job at selling the idea than I did, I mean, damn, some of those situations described above have my mouth watering.

point is, I think the fan base if probably there, and i pledge my purchasing dollars to a Battlefront effort in the Pacific, but whatever Battlefront does, I support their excellent, tireless work.

Thanks for all the great replies, Gentlemen,

Mailer

[Los]

Mike,

Just curious, I already have the CMBO-PAC mod installed (it's great). D0 I gain anything by reinstalling it, any updates to the original?

Los

[Mailer]

oh, and although someone said in another thread that Talonsoft's Rising Sun was missing something the other two titles had--I have to say that Rising Sun was a very compelling game.

The scenerios were very good, and well designed. There were some tense engagments in the Operation Shoestring Campaign. (Gaudalcanal)

Like the time the Japanese stormed my base at night. My boys had been making good progress at Guadalcanal, but during the night, Jap boats managed to land tons of infantry on the island, and they came in hard. It went like this--

A flare went up and machine gun fire started pouring out of the nearby jungle. "Banzai!" they cried out and they charged the paremeter.

My boys opened up with machine gun fire, but they couldn't see anything so they just fired at the muzzleflashes in darkness (yes, this is modeled in the game.)

I ordered a flare to be fired above the jungle, but it was a dud and my guys still couldnt see anything.

By then a wave of Japanese had crossed the field under cover of darkness and it was face to face fighting between them and my men.

They broke through my forward line and were charging through my encampments. By now I had some flares up in the air, so the night was lit up and there were japs and americans all intermixed, engaged in brutal close combat.

"BANZAI!" More charged through the break in my line and were running willy nilly into my encampment.

But by now my boys on the front line were pulling it together, and my reserve units were getting organized and really bringing fire to bear on the enemy.

More Flares went up. The Japanese were losing steam, their push into my ranks was devestating, but costly to them as well. I got some morters into postion and soon I them pinned.

The fighting reached a crescendo, and finally, the japs broke, they turned and fled back toward the jungle, taking heavy fire the whole way.

When the dust cleared, I was awarded a marginal victory. It was just another night on the Pacific front.

So, what I'm saying is that Rising Sun offered plenty of great gaming moments just like the other two in the series, and i think the same could be said of a combat mission venture into pacific territory.

Mailer

[demoss]

I'd certainly love to see it.

They'd definitely have to model Willy Pete as an offensive weapon....

[The Hooded One]

Originally posted by Mailer:

oh, and although someone said in another thread that Talonsoft's Rising Sun was missing something the other two titles had--I have to say that Rising Sun was a very compelling game.

Yes, the most developed engine of the Campaign Series, but it just didn't have the variety - a very small selection of scenarios compared to the other games, and no Chinese or Russians.

I think a Pacific version of Combat Mission would be interesting if it included evrything from China in the early 1930's right through to the Russian attacks in Manchuria in 1945.

However, IMHO the essence of the Pacific War in terms of the US vs. Japan is naval air combat, and this is obviously best modelled at an operational or strategic level a la Matrix's 'Uncommon Valor'.

[Kaiser Soze 71]

Originally posted by Sergei:

1939 - Germany and Soviet Union invade Poland, Soviet Union invades Finland

Ahem. Great Britain and Finland were the only European countries which were NOT invaded. And don't bring me Switzerland or Sweden - I'm talking about participating countries of WW2.

Soviet Union attacked Finland, but didn't invade it. German soldiers in Finland wasn't invasion, we were allies and got help from Germany.

I'm sure, Sergei that you know this but you presented it incorrectly

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Kaiser Soze 71:

Ahem. Great Britain and Finland were the only European countries which were NOT invaded.

I meant invasion in the sense of crossing the borders, not in the sense of conquering and occupying. Invasion = maahanhyökkäys Later Finland invaded Soviet Union too.

[Sergei]

Hi Mailer,

no, CMBB starts from 1941, with the beginning of Barbarossa. There is no Polish army of 1939, although there is a Soviet-equipped Polish army late in the war.

We may do without the war in Norway as well, but it would be a shame to miss such a different setting. That is where Brits "really" fought the Germans on land for the first time in the war. At least having the TO&E's extend to that point, if Norwegians themselves weren't included, would be wise (probably wouldn't require much extra work, unless some more special troops like British marines are needed).

CMAK will include the invasion of Crete, but by that time Greece and Yugoslavia had already fallen. There were some Greek soldiers on the island, but most of the defenders were New Zealanders. Doing the battles between Germans and Brits in Greece would probably be feasible to some extent (some equipment might be different though). And no, there are no Yugoslavian units in CMBB although I have played a Yugoslavia scenario by Hans. Not the same thing, though.

[V]

Originally posted by Mailer:

Sergei--

Germany, soviets invade poland--isn't this modeled in CMBB?

No, CMBB models June 1941 and on. I believe this refers to the German invasion of Poland in September of 1939. The Soviets also invaded Poland in 1939 as part of one of the secret clauses of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

Germany invades Yugoslavia and Greece--I think that CMAK will cover the Germany invasion of Greece. Not sure about that. Seems like I read that there would be some ITaly vs. France action too, not sure. Can't you model Germany invading Yugo in CMBB? Seems like they offer Yugo units, not sure though. I know they have Hungarian and Romanian. [/qb]

CMAK covers the African front and the fighting in Italy. But does not cover the Balkan German balkan campaign. I think that this should be covered whenever we get an early war game that covers France '40 and Poland. Hypothetical invasion of Czechoslovakia would be very interesting as well.

[ November 02, 2003, 03:55 AM: Message edited by: V ]

[Kaiser Soze 71]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Invasion = maahanhyökkäys

My mistake. Sorry 'bout dat

[Hortlund]

oo ooo and dont forget the Ninjas!!

QUAH!! That'd be totally sweet because they would just flip out and kill people.

[Victor Semensi]

This topic comes up every year so I'll repeat my request. Let's have the Korean War added in to a WWII pacific game. Pattons, Shermans, T34/85's and weren't infantry small arms little changed from WWII? Doesn't seen like it would be much of a stretch to convert CMBB to the Korean War.

[Mailer]

I guess if I had thought about it, I would have remembered that the units only date back as far as 1941 in CMBB.

I haven't played CMBB in a while because I actually bought that one first. I just recently got CMBO about two weeks ago so I'm playing a lot of it now.

Yeah, I really would like to see an early war version, it would probably be called CM: Blitzkrieg and would include the invasion of Poland, France, etc. Maybe even a Hypothetical Operation Sea Lion.

Korean war--you know, many of the units are so similar in the Korean War and WW2, that it would be quite easy to move the game into that territory. I wonder how difficult it would be to make a mod for the Korean war. One problem I do see is that air power played a REALLY important role in Korea, but this could probably be modeled in a fairly reasonable fashion.

Is there any unique terrain in the Korean war that would be difficult to model with the CM engine?

Someone above mentioned Gary Grigsby's Uncommon Valor--just thought I would confirm that this is an EXCELLENT game.

And lastly, I bet most of you who have expressed a lack of interest in a Pacific Front version of CM will probably be in line with the rest of us to purchase it when its released.

I mean, come on, you won't be able to resist. You'll see that copy of it sitting on the store shelves or available on the internet and it will look so damn good that you won't be able to stop yourself from shelling out the fifty bucks.

I could be wrong, but I imagine that it would probably be a financial success for Battlefront.

Thanks all,

Mailer

[Los]

I am posting a few previews of MikeT's CMMOS Pacific Mod for CMBO, hopefully this'll hold you over....

Look under the files section:

Look under files for CMBO Pacific jpgs

[ November 04, 2003, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: Los ]

[Mailer]

Los,

Looking forward to seeing it. Is that a link you put on your post or is it html code to show an image? It looks like a path to something but its not showing correctly.

To anyone,

Hey, I would like to get involved in a pbem session with someone. I've never played multiplayer Combat mission before and would really like to give it a try. I'll talk about my play style and skill level below and if I sound like a good match, I would love to play someone.

1. Skill level--I'm pretty good. I understand the combined arms philosophy employed in modern warfare and am fairly effective at using it in the game. I'm certainly not the best player and I do lose to the AI in singleplayer from time to time, but this is usually more because I am overly cautious and don't get all my objectives early enough.

2. I'm a semi-cautious player. I'm usually pretty careful with my units. That doesn't mean that I won't jump on an opportunity and risk it all from time to time, but I'm fairly prudent.

3. I'm a good defender and a decent attacker. I can hold my own either way.

4. Willing to play axis OR allies in either CMBB or CMBO, although my effectiveness varies with each nation.

5. I don't do gamey stuff. BUT, I won't cry about everything and say everything my opponent does is gamey either. I don't like cry babies.

6. I play the game seriously, but I'm looking for a fun challenge, not victory at all costs. That means I won't cheat or exploit and I expect my opponent to do the same.

7. I would like to start with a semi-slow game, maybe two turns a day or something. I'm flexible though, so that can be worked out if I find an opponent.

8. I'm a big fan of combined arms--healthy selection of infantry with a few tanks, armored vehicles, and a few support vehicles. I like big tank battles too and even infantry only, but prefer the force balance I initially described. Once again, I'm flexible on this.

9. I like most all terrain types, etc. Would probably like my first multiplayer NOT to be in DEEP snow and HARSH conditions, but once again, pretty flexible here.

10. Did I say no cry babies?

11. Random quick battle or pre-designed scenerio--either is fine with me.

12. I'm interested in these two minute pbem turns I've read about. Would gladly play this way or standard--flexible again.

13. Please be patient with me. I'm pretty good at this game, but never played a human before, and I might be in for a rude awakening. So if I end up getting creamed--sorry. I expect to do fairly well, though.

14. more than happy to play with any one from any nation, as long as you know enough English to tell me your email address. I figure we'll let our rifles do the talking. Despite a few loud mouth idiots here in America, most of us Americans like Europeans and people of other nations.

15. it MUST be a friendly game. I'm not looking to bust anyone's balls and I don't want mine busted either.

I know I must seem like a prick listing a fifteen point description of who I want to play with, but I'm really just trying to make sure that I don't waste someone else's time. I'm a really patient guy, and at the very worst will make a polite opponent. At best, I'll give you a run for your money!

thanks all,

Mailer

[Los]

It's links to JPG images. I can see it Ok?

Los

[Mailer]

LOS,

Yes, its showing correctly now. Don't know why it was showing all that screwball stuff before.

Anyway, those look great. What are you doing that stuff in?

There is a very definate Pacific Look to those images.

EDIT- I mean, what is MikeT doing that work in?

[ November 04, 2003, 03:30 AM: Message edited by: Mailer ]

[Kellysheroes]

I downloaded a Pacific Theater mod off of wargamer.com for the CMBO game. The graphics of the units were excellent, but, I have no clue about the combat calibrations for the tanks. It's fun to play I know that. Nothing more fun than killing JAPS! heh (in the game folks in the game, not in real life of course)

I also have THREE CMBO folders, one is for the European war and mods, another is for the Desert Rats mod/exe I downloaded as well from wargamer.com and then the third is for the Pacific War. So I don't get any mod conflicts or weird graphics or have to change things in and out by having three sets of execution folders.

Personally I'm not a fan of the russian front, never was, even in the board wargaming days, but, I bought CMBB for the new way it plays and the extra options one has for the units. Now I'm hoping someone converts this engine over to the West Front and Pacific side of the war as well, like they did Desert Rats and the Pacific War mod. I like playing the Americans and British and French, playing the russians is boring and well I usually just play the Germans when I play CMBB.

The ultimate CM game would be ALL of the fronts in one game with ALL of the units from every nation that are in all the games right now. That way everyone can play their favorite nation/units in their favorite setting.

And the ultimate ULTIMATE game would be a strategy map where the player makes strategic/operational moves on it, then resolves the conflicts with the CM tactical game.

[Spook]

Originally posted by Mailer:

Someone above mentioned Gary Grigsby's Uncommon Valor--just thought I would confirm that this is an EXCELLENT game.

And lastly, I bet most of you who have expressed a lack of interest in a Pacific Front version of CM will probably be in line with the rest of us to purchase it when its released.

I mean, come on, you won't be able to resist. You'll see that copy of it sitting on the store shelves or available on the internet and it will look so damn good that you won't be able to stop yourself from shelling out the fifty bucks.

I could be wrong, but I imagine that it would probably be a financial success for Battlefront.

Well, Mailer, your enthusiasm for wanting the CM system extended to the PTO is certainly commendable.

(For that matter, if you're really into Pacific war history from an IJN perspective, I've an article at the Wargamer that is guaranteed to bore you to tears, if you're so inclined. )

And yes, contrary to past argued positions on how the Pacific War doesn't "seem" adapted to gaming at squad-level, or seems limited in scenario possibilities, this doesn't hold up to historical accounting. Reviewing just Robert Smith's official US Army history of post-Leyte operations in the Philippines, "Triumph in the Philippines", would provide a ream of tactical possibilities. Engaging the Japanese 2nd Tank Division at Luzon's San Jose, ZigZag Pass, street-fighting and river-crossings in Manila, airborne drops on Correigedor, Ipo Dam, and so forth.

The central nub to do all this, however, is that Battlefront has to first do all of the pre-development research into the Pacific War. They have to research battles & campaigns, and they have to develop historically-based OOB's for a host of nationalities. If trying to include nationalities like the Chinese for the 1930's on to 1945, that alone would not be expected to be a minor task.

If the BF guys don't want to make that time investment, then end of story. UNLESS..... someday in the future, BF ever sees fit to "lease" the CM game engine to a party of volunteers willing to do the work instead; building the 3D models, making the graphics textures, researching Pacific OOB's and historical campaigns, and so forth.

Will that happen someday? Maybe. But don't hold your breath this year or the next.

And in truth, as a matter of priorities, I would much rather for the BF team to focus on its future-planned "CMX2" game engine which is billed to seek many more revolutionary changes to the original CM system than the evolutionary changes from CMBO to CMBB/CMAK.

Perhaps when the CMX2 system has been out long enough, the original CM engine might be leased to those wanting to do a more extensive "Pacific" add-on with OOB's and added specialty rules and features. But I myself would just wait longer for a possible CMX2 Pacific mod.

[Happydog]

For all the study everyone has made of the European theater it's disturbing that nobody has much knowledge at all of the Asian & Pacific wars where plenty of Asian, European and American troops fought. From the Japanese in China through the 30s to the invastion of the Asian sub-continent in the 1940s, (eg the Malaysia campaign, Burma, Singapore) to the campaign through the Solomons, threatened invasion of Australia, and the island hopping campaign to push the Japanese back to their home island, there was plenty of action diversity of nations and force types doing the fighting. Certainly not all dominated by air or naval fighting - that is a big myth that has to disappear. Take the battle for Okinawa where the fiercest land battles of any WW2 campaign took place or the fighting for Mt Surubachi on Iwo Jima? More than enough material there. WW2 in the Pacific was not all 'Windtalkers' ... far from it. So yeah, I agree with the original post. It would be great if the next version of CM could look to the forgotten theater of WW2 and continue to expand our options as players. Maybe they could include a sniper too? Would make sense.

[Mailer]

Yes, I am definately looking forward to Combat Mission 2, and don't want them to slow down on that.

Your idea about leasing the engine out to an independant group is a good one, though.

Battlefront is a small company, not a bunch of corporate ceos with their hands tied around their balls, so they just might be able to pull something like that off.

Combat Mission already has a HUGE modding community, they could probably put together a team right there, and with a low overhead like that, it would certainly have a good shot at financial success.

[junk2drive]

just looked at the wargamer's games depot. top downloads in the last thirty days are wild bill's spwaw pacific scen's

i think pac front and usmc anzac is a very popular theme in wargaming

some islands dont have jungles, especially after heavy bombardment.

[Ralph Beaman]

I tried to download the Pacific front files, mentioned in the above forums, at wargamer.com and they would not download. Is there another website to download the pacific front mods?