221 vs. M3 Scout Car -- Inexplicable Situation

[Col Deadmarsh]

I'm in a situation right now where I ambushed my opponent's Russian scout car with a 221. My armored car fired 3 shots with his 20mm cannon (Tungsten rounds), two of which hit dead on and achievied "upper hull penetration." But for some reason, the scout car has not been destroyed. The driver simply stopped and has now thrown the thing in reverse to get out of there pronto.

Curiously, when I checked my current kill rating against it on the next turn, it said "Fair." Huh? Whadda you mean, Fair?!?!? The M3 has 8mm of armor! So how can my kill percentage only be "Fair"? I'm not shooting BB's at it!

[Denwad]

Well, 8mm is nothing, like paper.

In a situation like that, you have to hit critcal components because there is going to be very little spalling. Also, a 20mm APHE has VERY LITTLE HE & casing so don't expect anything out of that.

[Stalin's Organ]

Yep - the 20mm round isn't very lethal - it doesn't produce a lot of lead flying sround inside the target.

Chances are you'll get the kill, but it might take seveal shots, and there's quite a good chance your crew won't notice that they've KO'ed the target until its crew bails out and will keep pumping rounds into it well after it's actually dead.

[panzermartin]

Especially the tungsten rounds I think, have no warhead at all, thus they dont cause explosion with impact. So the round can penetrate the thin armour of the car, fly through it and exit from the opposite side without causing any damage.

I have seen this with thin armored SP guns as well.

[JasonC]

A B-24 is much thinner than an armored car, and requires a lot more moving parts continuing to move as designed to stay in the air, than the AC needs to stay on the ground. And the Germans estimated it took on average 20 hits by 20mm APHE to knock one down.

What you are seeing is the accurately limited behind armor effect of light AP rounds. Sometimes those will result in kill when they penetrate, sometimes they will wound a crew member, or cause gun damage, or immobilization, or just make the crew panic. Sometimes they will do no significant damage.

If you accumulate many penetrations you will wreck the vehicle. Whether 1-2 do anything serious is a coin toss. It is even more noticable with ATRs, which can penetrate e.g. a halftrack repeatedly before causing a bailout.

[ August 23, 2003, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Col Deadmarsh]

So what good is the 221 w\ Tungsten then? Can it only take out light tanks on a 1st or 2nd hit or are they somewhat useless against them too?

What was the point of having a round with no explosive power once it hit?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Obviously you'd want the 88mm mounted instead.

You can only mount certain sizes of weapons on vehicles, also depending on their role. It's a scout never intended to take out well armoured tanks but rather a scout to fend of light tanks and ACs. For weapon and ammo size the 20mm is value for money for this purpose..

[flamingknives]

The thicker the armour, the more effect AP shot has behind it (provided it can penetrate).

This is due to the amount of armour being pushed through into the vehicle. The energy expended is partially converted into heat so the red-hot armour shards are propelled into the inside of the vehicle. The thicker the armour, the greater the amount of this kind of nastiness is generated.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Ah...thanks for explaining that to me. It all makes sense now...

I guess these AC's are only good for warding off scout cars and the like.

Of course, I still don't see why the Germans made a round with no warhead on it. Can you not put something like that on a 20mm round to make it more effective?

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Of course, I still don't see why the Germans made a round with no warhead on it. Can you not put something like that on a 20mm round to make it more effective?

How much of a difference do you think it would have made? Peashooter is a peashooter even if the peas are filled up with molden TNT. Think of it in terms of the 12,7 mm or 15 mm HMG. Theoretically any caliber could use HE bullets, but it wouldn't necessarily be cost effective.

[Belaja smert]

Actually, I have found the german ACs with 20mm autocannons very useful, especially at the start of the war. Sure they can't kill T-34s but everyone else is in trouble with them (panic effect) and they tend to hit quite well. I'm guessing they get a 'to-hit' bonus because they fire bursts, not single shots.

Just make sure YOU get the first shot :eek:

[Jarmo]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Of course, I still don't see why the Germans made a round with no warhead on it. Can you not put something like that on a 20mm round to make it more effective?

It's a compromise. A shot with a warhead has worse penetration capabilities. The more HE you have in a shell, the more damage the round does if it penetrates, but it wont penetrate as much.

The german 20mm's also have a HE shot for use against unarmored targets.