Michael Emrys Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 I'm wondering if anyone has tried using them against bunkers/pillboxes. If so, are they effective? How about Molotov cocktails? Just wondering. Michael [ July 24, 2003, 04:17 AM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 I never used them vs Pillboxes, but there are verty effective vs AFV's I believe pillboxes are used like vehicles by the CM engine, so it should be effective too. Do a test 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinhead Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 I tried them recently in a QB. It worked fantastic. I advanced the ampulomet to the edge of some trees, just in range from the bunker and needed two or three shots and the bunker-crew bailed out. regards 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 References say that ampuloments were practically useless in battle, a bottom-of-the-barrel stopgap weapon (much like some British Home-Defense weapons designs after Dunkirk). But in-game it can be a pretty darned useful weapon. I wonder, is the game inaccurate (and how is it inaccurate?) or did the ampuloment just get bad press? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 24, 2003 Author Share Posted July 24, 2003 Originally posted by Monty: I believe pillboxes are used like vehicles by the CM engine, so it should be effective too.That's what I was thinking too. I got a bunch of them in a QB and am faced with a German MG bunker. There's no way that I will be able to work them close enough to use in this game, but it got me to wondering in case a more favorable opportunity turns up. Thanks everyone for the responses. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 Hey, if you can't safely reach the mg bunker with your ampuloments maybe you can create a wall of fire between you and them by targetting an inverening wheat field! Isolate the bunkers. Of course ideas like that never work for me. For me it's ALWAYS raining or on city pavement. [ July 24, 2003, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 25, 2003 Author Share Posted July 25, 2003 No wheat fields and the ground is damp. Otherwise an interesting idea. In the meanwhile, I have an 82mm mortar using spotted fire on the chance of a lucky hit. In any case, this particular bunker is not of the greatest importance since it doesn't command the main route of my attack. I'd just like to kill it because I am a bloodthirsty savage. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 If the bunker is used for defending a flank and has no inf. around it, you could try this tactic ( i used it with some good results, but its a gamble ) : Fire some smoke shells right in front of the bunker and rush an ampulomet (i used zooks in CMBO ) in a jeep to the side/back of the bunker. Im not shure if you need to be in front of the bunker to knock it out with an ampulomet , just try it. Monty 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eichenbaum Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 If it's a wooden bunker I can imagine it catches fire, driving the crew out... But a concrete pillbox ? Can't imagine that's possible. The grenade makes a wide bow when launched and hits the target with an angle of almost 180 degree. The bunkers aren't much damaged by a direct hit of a 150mm artillery grenade, how can it be with a molotov grenade ? And a grenade through the narrow opening on the front side ? Yeah right... Eichenbaum 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbs Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 I wondered about that too. If these bunkers have rear doors on them, it would seem unlikely that an ampulomet would blow open the door, if fired from the rear of the bunker. It might set it on fire, but even if the door did catch on fire, it seems that it (a) would have no effect if it is a metal door, or ( take 10 minutes plus to burn through a wooden door. Even at that, if I were in such a cement bunker I'd say "oh, the door is on fire, but since I'm several feet away it's not likely to burn me" and continue to fire. If I were in a wooden bunker I might think about evacuating, but not, as I indicated above, for 5 or 10 or 15 minutes. As far as firing an Ampuloment from the front, I think that the results as modeled are acceptable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Maybe we're talking more psychological than physical harm: The pillbox crew hears the ampuloments smash, then smell smoke of burning petrol. Perhaps the camou netting or piled branches begin to burn. One fire-phobic crewmember starts looking around the interior imagining the interior of an oven. He starts to sweat, to hyperventilate. Then he suddenly starts screaming and make a mad lunge to onlock the rear door as his crewmates pull him down. Fear of fire, fear of snakes, fear of heights. Some people would rather face certain death than face these. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 26, 2003 Author Share Posted July 26, 2003 There is also the question of the exhaustion of oxygen within the bunker. I understand that's mainly how napalm works against them. I imagine it might take several hits by gasoline grenades before a large enough conflagration was going to have that effect though. Michael [ July 25, 2003, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wannabe Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 I was playing the 6th army scenario in the Stalingrad pack with my friend one time via TCP/IP, i was soviets and a round from 105mm battery landed right on top of the wooden MG bunker, knocking it out instanly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 26, 2003 Author Share Posted July 26, 2003 Originally posted by Wannabe: I was playing the 6th army scenario in the Stalingrad pack with my friend one time via TCP/IP, i was soviets and a round from 105mm battery landed right on top of the wooden MG bunker, knocking it out instanly. Yes. I don't know about BB, but ISTR that in BO you could eventually kill a wooden bunker with a few direct hits with 81mm mortars. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eichenbaum Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Where I live, the woods are filled with the remains of German bunkers. One thing stays always visible, they were connected to one another. If the crew of a bunker did't get much oxygen by a molotov grenade they could always leave the pillbox for a few minutes and come back to start the fight again. The Germans knew exactly how to build good bunkers. Eichenbaum 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 26, 2003 Author Share Posted July 26, 2003 Eichenbaum, I see in your profile that you live in the Netherlands. Can you be more specific about where you have seen these bunkers? They sound like they are part of a permanent defensive line, i.e. the Atlantic Wall or West Wall. The Germans built a great variety of types of fortified emplacements and sometimes utilized those built by their enemies before the war. Not all that they used were up to the standards you describe. I believe the ones appearing in CM, especially the wooden ones, are meant to represent somewhat hastier field fortifications. They certainly give no indication of being interconnected. The closest you could come to that in the game would be to connect them via open trenches, which would represent a fairly common practice. Michael [ July 26, 2003, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eichenbaum Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Michael Emrys I live in Venlo, The Netherlands. A city only 2km from the German border. Here a airfield "Fliegenhorst" was sited (where the comet was tested). The area around it, mostly forsts, was heavenly fortiefied with concrete. A lot of remains are still to be found. The concrete pillboxes are connected with deep trenches and tunnels. Eichenbaum 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 27, 2003 Author Share Posted July 27, 2003 Eichenbaum, Thank you for your reply. I envy you. I love to examine old fortifications, especially those of WW II vintage. BTW, I have an excellent book on WW II fortifications. It describes the more common types built by all the combants in Europe in great detail. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of it and couldn't find it just now when I went to look for it. My library remains—and is likely to remain for the foreseeable future—a disaster area. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanish Bombs Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Until very recently my experience with ampulomets did nothing to convince me of their worth. I had never had them knock out a vehicle, and the time I tried to use them to start a fire in a dry wheatfield was also unsuccesful. Playing an early war scenario recently changed my mind somewhat, as they've killed at least one StuG and a pair of lighter vehicles. One question I have about the accuracy of their modelling, however is that the aforementioned StuG was immobilized by the ampulomet before being knocked out. I guess I understand a StuG crew abandoning ship after being immobilized, and taking repeated hits from fire bombs, but I'm wondering about the actual likelihood of an ampulomet causing an immobilization. I realize that tons of variables are taken into account, but about the only way I could think of causing an immobilization would be via a direct hit on the driver's compartment. Otherwise, it seems to me that the whole track and tread system would be pretty impervious to the glass and fuel combo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogface Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Pour burning fuel and some broken glass in your cars engine air intake. He he I would imagine that this is what was happening in that scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanish Bombs Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Originally posted by Dogface: Pour burning fuel and some broken glass in your cars engine air intake. He he I would imagine that this is what was happening in that scenario. OK, fair point I imagine. However, I salvaged the movie from my Recycle Bin, and it was reported as a "Track Hit, Immobilized", which I wouldn't think would inclued a hit on the intake vents. Also, it was a PzIV, not a StuG as I had mistakenly recalled. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 27, 2003 Author Share Posted July 27, 2003 Actually a track hit could result in immobilization. The road wheels had rubber tires which would burn and could lead to other problems. All the wheels and rollers contained grease which would also burn and cause the part to freeze up. It might take some time for the burning to cause immobilization though. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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