mortars vs. KV2, gamey or just stupid?

[SirReal]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Edit to add - the Germans did not just have Tigers, so to use them as a measure of the effectiveness of artillery against tanks is not really that fair.

Ah, yes. That's assuming that not everyone that elects to play as the germans in CM:BB won't purchase Tigers until his Armor points run out. I'd say that's a valid assumption for the most part. Not. =)

Also, I should note that 120mm+ artillery should be effective against heavy armor, not just Pz38, T-34 and the like. Try putting X points of Tigers in a close formation, and then dropping X points of arty on them.

Assuming that you're playing a someone who will park his tanks in a close formation on your TRP, and that all your arty spotters are conscript (since you know he's going to park on the TRP, why not), and finally that he won't move the tanks out of the arty fire.

Then yes. You're right. You can almost always kill as many points worth of tanks as you bought arty for.

Of course, if the cunning bugger actually has his tanks move in combat formations, or, god forbid, won't park in the middle of an artillery barrage, then no. It's not worth it. At least not in the tests I've conducted.

/SirReal

[Andreas]

Originally posted by SirReal:

Ah, yes. That's assuming that not everyone that elects to play as the germans in CM:BB won't purchase Tigers until his Armor points run out. I'd say that's a valid assumption for the most part. Not. =)

I'd say that if you talk about QBs with player-purchase, your stattement that in CMBB artillery on tanks is not worth it, is wide off the mark. I can not quite remember when I played the last QB with player purchase forces. May have been during the beta-testing of CMBB. In scenarios, or with computer-purchase, you won't see the Tigers. If you want to rephrase your statement to become 'In CMBB QBs with player purchased forces, using artillery on tanks is not worth it.', go right ahead, you won't get any quibbles from me.

Originally posted by SirReal:

Of course, if the cunning bugger actually has his tanks move in combat formations, or, god forbid, won't park in the middle of an artillery barrage, then no. It's not worth it. At least not in the tests I've conducted.

Well, it is called a 'kill-zone'. Have you ever thought whether it is not the smartness of your opponent in avoiding your killzone, but your ineptness in drawing him into it, that is your problem?

[Sergei]

Originally posted by SirReal:

Ah, yes. That's assuming that not everyone that elects to play as the germans in CM:BB won't purchase Tigers until his Armor points run out. I'd say that's a valid assumption for the most part. Not. =)

Actually, I have never bought a Tiger in a 2-player QB, not in CMBO nor in CMBB. There must be something terribly wrong with me as I feel such play styles to be unsatisfactory. :eek:

[SirReal]

Originally posted by Andreas:

If you want to rephrase your statement to become 'In CMBB QBs with player purchased forces, using artillery on tanks is not worth it.', go right ahead, you won't get any quibbles from me.

Right. That's what I meant. So stop quibbling!

Originally posted by Andreas:

Well, it is called a 'kill-zone'. Have you ever thought whether it is not the smartness of your opponent in avoiding your killzone, but your ineptness in drawing him into it, that is your problem?

Oooh, good one! I'll put that one in my special box of grog insults.

/SirReal

[Andreas]

Shame, I thought it was the one you should have gone to BFC with.

[Moshe Malyevshevsky]

Greetings Friends........

In CMBB you have a choice whether to use KVs or not...but (IMHO), in real life, the Heer didn't have such an option! If you were there, you either dealt with it, or, ran like hell (and probably got shot for your pain)!!

Using the KVs, even though it is "Hard", is the difference between a realistic simulation or a plain old everyday wargame! Using mortars on a KV is like spitting to put out fire! Unless (as has been said), you mix HE & Smoke & infantry!!

But, they can be stopped! Try immobilizing it, then wait till it's out of ammo, or, attack from different directions...It can't shoot in all directions at once!

Moshe

Ita erat quando hic adveni

It was that way when I got here

[Siege]

Personally, I don't feel using mortars against vehicles to be gamey at all. How effective they may be can vary from good to useless. If your options are all in the range of "probably won't work", the best bet is to try everything.

Against open topped vehicles such as Marders/Nashorns it can be surprisingly effective due to the limited crew protection. A KV is an extreme example that needs luck to have any effect, and the bigger the mortar the better.

In a recent game, my opponent caught me totally off-guard with some Panzer III's in a place I didn't expect armor. Before I could get a T-34 over there, a pair of ampulomet's made the crew abandon the lead enemy tank which was the biggest threat.

-Hans

[JasonC]

On the effectiveness of arty vs. tanks in CMBB, it comes down to efficiency. You get more bang for your buck dropping shells on infantry. But if the shells are large enough - in my experience 150mm and up is about the cut-off - then they will also hurt tanks and can be used for that in a pinch. When you do, you should not expect an efficient pay off, but you will do something if you "spend" enough on it.

If you need your arty module to take out as many or more points than it costs, it should fire at infantry. But since the FOs generally aren't going to die - and somebody typically survives large battles - that isn't any hard and fast, global efficiency requirement.

If you spend 250 points on arty and kill 200 points of stuff, and lose nothing in return yourself, you are doing fine. He may have more points left in his force than you have after you've blown your ammo. But he also hasn't scored a single VP yet, while you have scored 200.

Another thing to keep in mind is that when using big arty against vehicles, variance is your friend. You don't have to blow your whole module trying to get as many near misses as you can. Instead you drop 4 shells, and see what they do. If they don't do much, then you drop 4 more shells and see what they do.

When you've done something you can switch the rest to a softer target. If you "roll well", you quit early, ahead. Immobilizing even one serious tank for 8 shells is often a good trade. Especially if they also do something to nearby infantry, as the big shells usually manage to do.

What *not* to do with arty vs. tanks is assume you can stop a number of them, with confidence, using only an FO and a TRP. It doesn't work that way. Ary is a suppliment to basic AT defense, a way of lowering his numbers. They are rather like AT mines or infantry AT in that respect. If you expect to make a given line uncrossable to hold a position, you need a heavy AT weapon that can kill the enemy type involved, with certainty.

[CombinedArms]

Lots of good points have already been made. I'll just add a couple of observations.

1) In my observation KV-2s suffer gun damage with unusual frequency. I suspect this is deliberately modelled in CMBB--photos suggest that that big gun was quite exposed and unusually vulnerable. So it makes sense to me to fire away at it with whatever you've go...The other use of light mortars might be to pin down enemy infantry so you can attack with your infantry. I've found that grenade bundles are quite effective against KVs. If you can keep your infantry just out of reach of the KVs line of sight, you might be able to tempt the tank in closer--to its doom.

2. I did fairly extensive tests in CMBO with arty against tanks and found that 150/155 and up was quite effective at disabling and sometimes killing tanks. 155VT and even 105VT was particularly effective. I haven't repeated those tests in CMBB but my observation is that 120mm and up can get you a fair number of immoblizations and/or gun damage. Playing variable rarity QB's, I get 120/122mm pretty often, but access to 150mm is rare. The ideal target for this arty is a mix of hard and soft--tanks and infantry. It's really not that unusual for attackers to offer such targets. I think JasonC's suggestion vs. tanks (4 rounds, then another 4 rounds, etc.) is a good one, but if you can catch infantry and tanks together, just blast away. A defender with some TRPs who can site them in juicy locations can sometimes rack up a good mixed score of hard and soft.

[bolton]

I think it can happen in real world but not in game.

not mean destory tank,but can make crew abandon it.early german gun cannot knocked out france's tank,but france crew always afraid and left their their tank

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by bolton:

I think it can happen in real world but not in game.

not mean destory tank,but can make crew abandon it.early german gun cannot knocked out france's tank,but france crew always afraid and left their their tank

This sometimes happens in the game, too, with Green and Conscript tankers: repeatedly hitting their tanks, even if you don't penetrate, can cause them to abandon a perfectly good tank.

[Mailer]

I lost one tiger and two were immobilzed in an intense Russian Rocket barrage.

I figured, these tanks are so tough, I won't pull them out of here because I like where they are parked.

Right about then one of them burst into flames. The other tanks go nervous and started shuffling around. One of them immobilzed itself in the mud and another got its track blown to bits. At least those two were able to still fire from their position, but I couldn't move them up.