Who buy's trucks??

[Jaws]

Just a question, are there people who give there money to buy trucks?? And if so how do you use them? My problem with trucks is they are vulnerable, slow in speed and it cost a lot of time before they carry out orders. Of course they must be part of CM but maybe we can speed things up a little to attach them to an HQ or something??

[Doodlebug]

Well they're better than nothing. Using them in the rear or safe areas works out for me. If I need to move up an AT gun to consolidate my advance then they are a must IMO. Half tracks are just too pricey for such a mundane job when they can be more use supporting the infantry or on recon.

[Holman]

Trucks are pretty useless in battle, and probably very few people buy them for QB's. However, they do have their uses on very large maps, and there are plenty of well-designed scenarios that include them for flavor or for realism's sake.

I salute the truck drivers of CM! Long may they stay out of harm's way!

[Sergei]

If I have guns and I need to move them (ME or attack), I'll buy a truck or a jeep. In my last attack game I had four guns and two mortars, and two trucks and a jeep for them. I lost one truck because it bogged. Moving infantry on trucks is not worth it, because they need to dismount almost right away.

[Dave H]

I've only bought a truck in a QB when I have a towed gun. I had one that took almost 15 minutes to cross a small wheatfield in the rain. That was without any interference by my opponent. Not only that, the AT rifle team in the truck refused to get out, even at the snail's pace it was moving. :mad: :mad:

I'm currently playing a PBEM scenario with several dozen trucks and kubelwagens, and getting them to move anywhere under sporadic long-range fire is like herding cats! I seriously considered abandoning the stupid things and making my infantry walk. There are few things in CM so aggravating as having a truck suddenly reverse and cut off a column of tanks for a minute or two. :mad: :mad:

[dieseltaylor]

I buy them,or half-tracks, in meeting engagements where I have purchased large guns. Keeps me honest. I do not want to start a debate about it it is just a personal thing. If the AT/gun assets are intrinsic to a battalion purchase that is a different case.

They appear to be very attractive to fighters so you can save other assets I can conceive of times where I could use them on a road to get infantry and guns to a place ultra quick. Obviously you need to way up the risk but it could be a coup de main[?]. Very satisfying if it works.

[Michael Emrys]

I've bought trucks, mostly for the sake of realism and the other reasons given here. It's true that cross country they aren't a lot faster than men on foot, but if you have a road, especially a paved road, going the right way, they can really fly. Thus, under the right circumstances they can be good for shifting reserves as long as you can protect them from enemy fire.

Michael

[Panzertruppe]

I have made the mistake in a few QB's by not buying trucks.....and my antitank guns never fired a shot!

A "must have" if you have a large battle and need to regroup...and reposition you antitank guns!

[Jaws]

Originally posted by dieseltaylor:

I buy them,or half-tracks, in meeting engagements where I have purchased large guns. Keeps me honest. I do not want to start a debate about it it is just a personal thing. If the AT/gun assets are intrinsic to a battalion purchase that is a different case.

Well half-track are also good to suppress infantry and you can use them as scout cars the trucks are waste after they delivered there cargo.

And yes I also buy trucks to play realistic.

[lcm1947]

Well I never buy trucks so unless I get them in a scenario I don't mess with them. In QB I would never buy them because I never buy guns so therefore don't need anything to tow them with and if I did I'd buy HT's so I could at least use the HT's firepower after dropping the gun off.

[Sardaukar]

Using trucks when ground conditions are damp and such is not that good idea. Cross country mobility tends tu suck immensely if conditions are not ideal. Halftracks may be better bargains, since as been said already, they can be used as fire support after moving guns. Trucks do have their use, though...in my recent PBEM ME, truck was invaluable to get my AT gun into good position.

Cheers,

M.S.

[Michael Emrys]

The thing about getting halftracks for this, that, and the other thing is that historically they were relatively rare, especially in the German army. They never had enough to go around.

Furthermore, using an HT to scout with or to provide MG support to infantry after it has dropped off a gun it was towing strikes me as either downright gamey or awfully close to it. It may have happened at one time or another in the vast drama of WW II, but it would normally have been considered bad form. In fact, dedicated gun tractors like the SdKfz 7 weren't even armed.

Of course, I realize that for some players that is of no concern.

Michael

[ August 02, 2003, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ]

[Jaws]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

The thing about getting halftracks for this, that, and the other thing is that historically they were relatively rare, especially in the German army. They never had enough to go around.

Furthermore, using an HT to scout with or to provide MG support to infantry after it has dropped off a gun it was towing strikes me as either downright gamey or awfully close to it. It may have happened at one time or another in the vast drama of WW II, but it would normally have been considered bad form. In fact, dedicated gun tractors like the SdKfz 7 weren't even armed.

Of course, I realize that for some players that is of no concern.

Michael

I agree about the gamey thing I didn't realize that. About halftrack being rare I think that most of the equipment in the CM series were rare but we don't want to end up with infantry and trucks only in CMAK isn't it.

[ August 02, 2003, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Jaws ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Jaws:

About halftrack being rare I think that most of the equipment in the CM series were rare but we don't want to end up with infantry and trucks only in CMAK isn't it.

I'm not entirely sure I understand that statement, so pardon me if this misses the point.

In Africa, halftracks seem to have been extremely rare until the fighting got to Tunisia. The Germans may have employed a few, but the Brits had none at all before that point as far as I know (were there any on the British side at el Alamein?). When the Americans showed up, they had plenty of them and may have provided them to the Brits on a corresponding scale, but again this would be in Algeria and Tunisia. In the Western Desert nearly everything moved by truck, but since the desert ground was usually firm and dry (at least where the armies were fighting) that should present few problems as far as mobility is concerned.

Once the action shifts to Italy, including Sicily, halftracks should be present in their usual abundance depending on nationality and division type.

Michael

[Warmaker]

I rarely buy trucks. Only in the following situations:

* 1.5k pt. games or larger (roughly)

* Large Number of turns

* Being the attacker sometimes but more likely on the assault.

* Especially if I find I have lots of footpower going instead of tracks/wheels.

* Being a bastard and sneaking in some ATGs into a newly taken area.

Make sure though that the trucks' route is as secure as possible is a must, esp. if you're towing guns and the like.

[ August 02, 2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[Col Deadmarsh]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

The thing about getting halftracks for this, that, and the other thing is that historically they were relatively rare, especially in the German army. They never had enough to go around.

Furthermore, using an HT to scout with or to provide MG support to infantry after it has dropped off a gun it was towing strikes me as either downright gamey or awfully close to it. It may have happened at one time or another in the vast drama of WW II, but it would normally have been considered bad form. In fact, dedicated gun tractors like the SdKfz 7 weren't even armed.

Of course, I realize that for some players that is of no concern.

Michael

If halftracks weren't used to scout, what were they used for? These armies already had trucks and gun tractors to tow guns and maybe halftracks were employed in the same way, but this couldn't have been their only use.

I can't imagine that a commander would send out a slow, expensive tank to scout with when he had access to faster, less-expensive HT's.

[YankeeDog]

ACs were generally the choice for scouting. ACs are faster, have better range, and usually have better firepower and somewhat better armor than HTs. Especially for the Germans, HTs were too valuable for their transport capability to risk in forward recon.

Recon in force is another matter - larger forward recon forces might well include HT-transported infantry to allow them to move quickly and efficiently, but we're talking about a small combined arms force here, not a couple of vehicles out on thier own, and in any event the HTs would not be out in front of such a force, but rather protected somewhere in the middle.

A lot of fighting was not the kind of 'hot' battle you usually see in CM. HTs have a big advantage over trucks and the like, not only in that they are more capable at traveling over bad road and rough terrain, but also in that they could transport troops relatively safely through harrassing artillery fire, sniper fire, and long-range MG fire. You do see this advantage of HTs in CM, but not to the same extent you would if you actually had to worry about getting your troops from a rear area up to the jump-off point, etc.

For the Panzer divisions, it was German doctrine to bypass minor resistance in an effort to keep forward momentum when on the attack, leaving towns, etc. to be 'cleaned up' by following infantry divisions. It's very difficult to get your infantry accompanying the forward tanks past a town containing the remanants of an enemy force in trucks if even just a moderate amount of rifle and mortar fire is coming from the town - trucks are very vulnerable to such fire. HTs allow you to get infantry through such 'harrying fire' and keep at least some infantry at the vanguard of the advance. We all know what happens to tanks that get forward of their infantry support in CM. . .

I'm sure HTs were occassionally used as forward recon because they were what was available, but it was not their assigned role.

Cheers,

YD

[Robohn]

I have bought trucks on several occasions to tow guns. As bonus they could fit a LMG/HMG to help cover the gun while it set up. I then usually keep the truck nearby if there is cover for it to facilitate moving the gun later if needed. I can also use the truck to go back to haul more stuff if that is needed...like to pick up a HMG team that covered on advance across some ground that is no longer covering anyone. Of course, my truck drivers won't want to say nice things about casualty rates....

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

The thing about getting halftracks for this, that, and the other thing is that historically they were relatively rare, especially in the German army. They never had enough to go around.

Furthermore, using an HT to scout with or to provide MG support to infantry after it has dropped off a gun it was towing strikes me as either downright gamey or awfully close to it. It may have happened at one time or another in the vast drama of WW II, but it would normally have been considered bad form. In fact, dedicated gun tractors like the SdKfz 7 weren't even armed.

Of course, I realize that for some players that is of no concern.

Michael

If halftracks weren't used to scout, what were they used for? These armies already had trucks and gun tractors to tow guns and maybe halftracks were employed in the same way, but this couldn't have been their only use.</font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

ACs were generally the choice for scouting. ACs are faster, have better range, and usually have better firepower and somewhat better armor than HTs. Especially for the Germans, HTs were too valuable for their transport capability to risk in forward recon.

And:

I'm sure HTs were occassionally used as forward recon because they were what was available, but it was not their assigned role.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there, YD. At least from 1942 on, the recon battalion of German mechanized divisions contained a company of engineers in halftracks as part of their standard TO&E. If you like, I think I can dig up some more precise information.

For the Panzer divisions, it was German doctrine to bypass minor resistance in an effort to keep forward momentum when on the attack, leaving towns, etc. to be 'cleaned up' by following infantry divisions. It's very difficult to get your infantry accompanying the forward tanks past a town containing the remanants of an enemy force in trucks if even just a moderate amount of rifle and mortar fire is coming from the town - trucks are very vulnerable to such fire. HTs allow you to get infantry through such 'harrying fire' and keep at least some infantry at the vanguard of the advance. We all know what happens to tanks that get forward of their infantry support in CM.

Nevertheless, it was never the case that the Germans could manage to put more than one-third of their infantry in Panzer and PG divisions in HTs. Some PG divisions appear to have had none at all.

And while the tanks may have bypassed points of minor resistance, I suspect some of those infantry in trucks were dropped off to mask such points and make sure the enemy did not infiltrate back into vulnerable supply routes. That's one of the reasons they were in the division. Once the leg infantry came up (a process that could take days), they could hand off mopping up duties and rejoin the rest of the division.

Michael

[reinald@berlin.com]

If halftracks weren't used to scout, what were they used for?

Like modern APCs for ferrying troops in and out safely under arty or mortar fire.

[flamingknives]

Trucks are very useful in a large ME, where having troops (especially support weapons) in position to secure the VLs early on can easily double their value. This does rely on decent roads or dry conditions, but can make a huge difference.

If you can expect roads and environment that reduces LOS, then trucks are worthwhile, as they cost about half as much as HTs and are quicker over roads.

[winkelried]

I use trucks only with a good road system. Cross country they're usually quite useless.

On the other hand I quite often buy MG Carriers. They have transport class 6, run at 30 mph and are fully tracked. At a good discount of the HT. Good for FO's, most ATG's, MGs and mortars. And they carry an MG.

[Sardaukar]

I'd not use HT for scouting if I buy one. I prefer using infantry for that. If I had bought HT for towing a gun, I don't see it very gamey to send it to give fire support for infantry attacks, though. After all, Soviet ATRs can rip through it quite nicely, but it's very handy to have "mobile semi-armoured MG pillbox" sometimes.

Cheers,

M.S.

[Jaws]

I agree on “the use truck with good road” statement. But my problem with that is when I play against an other human 9 out of 10 it is a QB game. And we never know if, and when there are roads, how they are situated on the map. :confused:

[ August 03, 2003, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Jaws ]