Prokhorovka anniversary!!!

[JasonC]

"I admire the people willing to die for the cause they believe in (good or wrong, no difference)."

If you think that isn't a political position, you are dumb as a post. It is, and one many of us violently disagree with.

And yes, members of the SS knew what they were doing and meant to do it. There was no mystery, the whole point was racially motivated murder in broad daylight. Which makes them thugs, not heros.

Have I ever played the SS in a game of CM? Certainly, I simulate all kinds of things to see how they work. Did I ever cheer for them or identify with them? Not remotely. Are the propaganda icons of the SS, goons, just like the rest of them? Absolutely.

[Michael Dorosh]

Prinz Eugen was the 7th Division, incidentally...not the 6th...

[Sergei]

Originally posted by von Churov:

I admire the will and courage they had. And they were brave...every single one of them.

Ah, give us a break. How many of them do you know well enough to tell anything about their personality traits?

I don't understand what's so admirable about courage if it is not used wisely. I'd say it's blind foolishness. But sure, dulcit et decorum est pro patria mori... (just try to tell that to their mothers)

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by von Churov:

I admire the will and courage they had. And they were brave...every single one of them.

Ah, give us a break. How many of them do you know well enough to tell anything about their personality traits?

I don't understand what's so admirable about courage if it is not used wisely. I'd say it's blind foolishness. But sure, dulcit et decorum est pro patria mori... (just try to tell that to their mothers) </font>

[Andreas]

Just short of 20,000 I believe. Depends on how you count them. Probably need to add to that personnel posted to Strafbatallionen who then got killed on Himmelfahrtskommandos (lit: 'Ascension Missions')

[Shmavis]

Again, I think an innocent call to remember an event in history is being wildly misinterpreted and/or used as an opportunity for some forum members to shame/flame others. Calm yourselves.

[JasonC]

You can innocently call on people to remember an event, without extolling its actors, or following up with essays expressing admiration for anyone who dies for their beliefs however base, admiring the elite SS, etc. Check your political opinion pushing at the door, or expect to get shoved right back.

[zmoney]

I hate commies and I hate nazis. They both killed tons and tons of innocent people. But I don’t think every member of the infantry on either side knew much about their government’s slaughter of the innocent, if anything. Instead of remembering the dead we could just remember that it was the biggest tank battle of all times. In the words of Saddam “the mother of all battles” except it really was the mother of all battles. So it deserves some note in history because of that.

[Shmavis]

Originally posted by JasonC:

You can innocently call on people to remember an event, without extolling its actors, or following up with essays expressing admiration for anyone who dies for their beliefs however base, admiring the elite SS, etc. Check your political opinion pushing at the door, or expect to get shoved right back.

How about you set down your firebrand of truth and justice for a few minutes, take a deep, deep breath, and remember that this is just a video game(forum)? You act like you bow your head and pray every time a soldier snuffs it on CM.

[JasonC]

zmoney - we aren't talking about "every member of the infantry". We are talking about the Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler. Pleas of "everyman-ness" do not apply.

[JasonC]

How about all the sanctimonous peanuts in the gallery stop defending the indefensible for five minutes and let the SS be damned as they ought to be, without the urge to utter another peep in their defense, direct or indirect, via moral equivalence games or otherwise?

[Shmavis]

Originally posted by JasonC:

How about all the sanctimonous peanuts in the gallery stop defending the indefensible for five minutes and let the SS be damned as they ought to be, without the urge to utter another peep in their defense, direct or indirect, via moral equivalence games or otherwise?

Priceless. Truly priceless. Your over-reaction started all of this nonsense. I'm done with this mongo thread.

[zmoney]

@ JasonC I’m afraid to say it but you are waaaaaaaaaaaaay over reacting. You just quoted me when if you look at my post then look at your post you will see that they say virtually the same thing. I guess we posted at about the same time because after I posted it I noticed yours and I was like wow we posted virtually the same thing.

But if you say this every person nonsense then don’t be guilty of it yourself. As in don’t say every SS infantry member was a believer in the nonsense that Hitler spewed. I agree that the SS that guarded concentration camps and rounded up the poor innocent people were supreme scum. I think everyone would agree with that.

See this is the problem with people today. You can’t say anything because it will usually upset the liberals even if it was something as insignificant like this in a WW2 game forum. I haven’t read anything in here that has advocated anything that Hitler or Stalin did. So don’t make it out that way. Also you really need to relax and not go crazy over something like this because it makes you looks silly.

[JasonC]

I don't care how silly whitewashers of war criminals think I look. They push, I push back. They insinuate, I call them out. They sneak in little sideways admirations and pretended moral equivalences, I call their "heros" and "elites" and "remarkable soldiers" the scum they were and shout it to the rooftops. It is a deterministic process. If they shut up I never raise the subject. If they post again and again with another sideways half way kinda sort stop overreacting dodge, I shove another corpse under their noses and rub vigorously. They were goons, no excuses, stop defending them in any way, shape, matter, or form. Or get shoved until the cows come home, entirely up to you.

[zmoney]

I dont even know what to say to that other than your missing the point. Which is, yes the commisars and SS true believers were and are and always will be scum. To call them anything else would be foolish. On the same note to call everyone who fought for the gaurds or SS units war criminals is foolish as well.

Now would it be proper to call all US and colalition forces in Iraq perverts because some idiots at Abu grab screwed around a bit? Or even worse I've heard those brave men from the colalition called war criminals. So is that right to call all of them includeing myself war criminals? The answer is obviously NO.

[Bigduke6]

Von Churov,

In answer to your question "Were Wittman and Barkmann thugs (of the type JasonC is talking about)?" my answer would be "If they were not, it is only because their wartime job had them inside tanks, and they didn't have the opportunity to act thuggishly."

Enthusiasts of the Waffen S.S., and I am certainly not saying you are one of them, operate on a double standard. They praise the Waffen S.S. divisions' fighting qualities, while ignoring the propaganda and brutality that made those young men such effective fighters.

JasonC if anything is putting it mildly. The Waffen S.S. was an organization devoted to the idea of absolute German racial superiority, total discipline in support of that goal, and utter ruthlessness against any one who stood in their way.

As I understand it, no one was drafted into the S.S. Every one of those soldiers, Barkmann and Wittman included, were volunteers.

The S.S. trained those volunteers to be indifferent to anything that might divert them from whatever military task at hand. This included things like keeping prisoners and civilians alive, if there was no reason beyond basic humanity to do so.

Certainly there were instances when an S.S. soldier showed mercy. That was the exception, from what I can tell. Usually the S.S. killed people without compunction and, even by the standards of total war, often without grounds. Any military necessity, no matter how minor, was just grounds for an S.S. trooper to kill whomever he pleased of the "slave populations."

Where I live and work, Ukraine, S.S. combat units were the leading and most violent edge of an occupation which treated an entire nation as nothing more or less than slaves, to be killed out of hand if Germany required it.

That "requirement" often was something as simple as an apparent partisan attack against a single German soldier, giving the S.S. troopers "just cause" to murder every man, woman, child in entire villages in the vicinity.

It is I think indicative that war veterans in the former Soviet Union - though frequently willing to concede the average German soldier was just a man like themselves caught up in the cogs of a giant war - to this day pretty much without exception STILL regard the S.S. as dangerous vermin.

Here is an example from my own experience. From time to time in my job I am in contact with Ukrainian veterans' organizations. I was greatly suprised to learn that the Ukrainian partisan veterans - who generally fought without quarter against Soviet forces - have after 30 years effectively made up with the Red Army veterans.

The government veteran administrations for both groups are under the same roof in the same building, and last May 9 I watched a parade of old veterans walk down Kiev's main street, and among the duffers shuffling along were both Red Army and Ukrainian partisan veterans. Not shoulder-to-shoulder, mind you, but still former enemies in the same parade.

But no S.S. One of the first foreign Waffen S.S. divisions Himmler raised, the 14th Galicia, was recruited in west Ukraine. Their unit integrity still holds, and those old guys still meet every year at reunions. No non-S.S. veterans are admitted.

The interesting thing to me is that both the Red Army veterans, and the Ukrainian partisan veterans, to this day consider former members of the 14th S.S. traitors who sold out their country and their own morals, to volunteer for one of the most evil military organizations in history.

My point is, of course, if veterans of the Red Army and the Ukrainian partisans can bury the hatchet, and yet even to this day neither group is willing to do the same thing with their countrymen that served happened to serve in the S.S., then there must be a strong reason for that lingering antagonism.

The veterans I have spoken with have said the reason for this attitude, simply put, is that the S.S. killed everything in its path, without compunction.

This is of course not to imply every S.S. trooper was a baby killer. But, assuming the Ukrainian war veterans have got their history right, this is for sure an indictment of every single S.S. trooper for volunteering and participating in an organization dedicated to outright evil goals.

I tend to agree with that point of view, and thus to disagree with you. I think the "difference" between the allgemeine S.S. and the Waffen S.S. you are saying existed, did not in actual fact. If it did exist, then it seems to me that there would be far less lingering anger against Wafffen S.S. units in occupied countries, than is actually the case.

It seems to me it is far more likely that the reason we readers of WW2 history sometimes gain the impression the Waffen S.S. was a band of brave fighters rather than an evil organization, was that the Waffen S.S. did its job primarily on the battlefield or immediately behind it, where records of their non-combat activities are limited, and survivors of their atrocities, however many there were, for practical purposes do not exist.

The Waffen S.S. subscribed to the same racist doctrines as the allgemeine S.S. I find it very hard to believe that somehow members of the Waffen S.S. retained their moral compunctions, when members of the allgemeine S.S. did not. I think it is far more likely that when a Waffen S.S. saw a situation requiring what we today would call an atrocity, he acted with less compunction than pretty much any member of the entire German military machine, excepting a few of the nastiest members of the Gestapo.

So though I would not indict Wittman and Barkmann for committing atrocities, I certainly would indict them for signing on to an organization whose stated goals ran hard against most human morals, and indeed much of German military and European humanist tradition.

I am not saying peple like that should have been shot out of hand after the war was over, but I am saying that they are anything close "heroes". A hero first and foremost deserves our respect, and in my view a man who volunteered for Hitler's Waffen S.S. in no way fits into that category.

As a second to final note to the thread-readers I would add that I am not arguing here that the Red Army was a wonderful organization that spent the war repairing hospitals and handing out lollipops to orphans. I am not trying here to judge the Red Army here at all, good or bad.

And finally, good for you for starting a Prokhorovka thread. We can argue about whether the S.S. soldiers in that battle deserve our respect. But any effort by the present generation to remember the sacrifices of previous ones, which is what you did, certainly has my respect.

[ July 18, 2005, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: Bigduke6 ]

[Andreas]

Stefan

Later in the war a lot of soldiers were drafted into the Waffen-SS. Wittmann and Barkmann however were volunteers from before the war.

[zmoney]

I think you are wrong about the recruitment in the early years at least. I know for a fact there were height requirements as well as hair and eye color requirements. Most of the atrocities behind the front lines were committed by SS security forces which were scum straight from the prisons of Germany. The waffen SS were the infantry arm of the SS. I don’t think the requirements were so stringent on them but I could be wrong. No doubt they were motivated soldiers and thought of them selves as elite and probly thought they were better than other units.

I also believe they probly did commit some crimes. Not to the extent as the security forces though. But the Eastern front was a brutal place to be. Like Peiper or Guderian said when asked if he committed any war crimes he replied “no ones hands are completely clean if they fought on the Eastern front”.

Is it right? No, but when both sides are as fanatical as they were that’s what happens. But any way the point is is that no one in this thread has condoned what either side did.

[von Churov]

Originally posted by von Churov:

Today is 62 exactly years since tank clash at Prokhorovka! The hammer and the anvil clash, that the mankind will remember for good!

A minute of silence in the respect of all the brave soldiers on both sides who fought and died for what they believed in!

Today we all play CMBB Prokhorovka-Finale.

Comments?

What's wrong with this?????

Have I said something insulting here?

Were they afraid? Yes!

Did they believed in something?

Yes! Whatever it was...but still it's YES!!!

Did they died...Many of them DID!

Were they brave? YES!

Speaking of bravery:

You think that the bravest man is not afraid in the battlefield? He is, but what makes his bravery even greater is that the fear he felt didn't stop him from moving on into the battle.

And that's what makes him brave!

Speaking of the cause:

You really miss the point here. It's idealism here that I speak about. It takes a lot of guts to rush into battle to die just because you believe in something, whatever it is.

It doesnt matter is that cause a brave new world where all the men are equal, or brave new world where all the men are white, or brave new world where all the men are women, or anything.

Or is that cause the feelings you have towards your country, your hometown, your friends in the squad...

Or is the simple belief that it's better to die because of the enemy's bullet than to die of your commissar's bullet.

IT DOESN'T MATTER FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!!

It's out of the scope of this post.

Millions of men fought.

They were brave, every single one of them.

They were brave for being there.

Thousans of them died.

They died for what they believed in.

That should be respected.

Period.

[ July 19, 2005, 01:45 AM: Message edited by: von Churov ]

[von Churov]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Prinz Eugen was the 7th Division, incidentally...not the 6th...

Thanks Michael,

My mistake.Mistyping.

I often misstype things. And that what happenes when one doesn't use numpad.

But speaking of SS Prinz Eugen.

I believe that no other SS Waffen unit did more war crimes than this one.

These were really bunch of headchopers.

Small example.

In October '41. in punitive expedition in Kragujevac (town south of Belgrade), they wiped out entire school. They took the kids and the teachers straight out form the class and executed them all.

No surviors.

Only because few of their soldiers were killed that day.

Or in punitive expedition in May-June '43 near Sutjeska river (border of Montenegro and Bosnia) they executed entire column of wounded, sick and refugees. 4000 men, women and childred killed in the most brutal way. No mercy showed.

And some of my relatives were in that column.

And now im being labeled as SS promoter?

Some kind of dark humor? Is this?

I'm a liberal actually...and that's what prevents me from seeing things black and white.

And what some of you did here is witchunt.

Trying to find something to burn.

[von Churov]

Originally posted by Bigduke6:

Von Churov,

In answer to your question "Were Wittman and Barkmann thugs (of the type JasonC is talking about)?" my answer would be "If they were not, it is only because their wartime job had them inside tanks, and they didn't have the opportunity to act thuggishly."

Well, if every man who was in SS were potential thug, than it makes Germany nastiest nations of all, since they have the highest percentage of thugs within the population.

And that's just not true.

Remember Pope Benedict, he was in Hitler Jugend. Does this make him a thug.

Or shall we say this way if he was not a thug that's only because in the wartime he was too young to join 12th SS Division,or he wasn't fit enough. So, we have a thug Pope.

Or shall I say it this way: Were American soldiers thugs in WW2? If they were not, that's only because they were born in free country and not in Nazi Germany.

If some of those brave Americans were accidently born in Germany, many of them would have joined SS.

It's not the Germans that were only liable to joining SS troops.It's in the human nature. Our hearts are easilly corrupted. And it's not on us to blame Witmann and Barkmann of being thugs only because they joined SS.Since, personally they did nothing that labels them as thugs.

Or, they did but no more than any other tank commander in any nation in WW2.

Had all of us been born in Germany in 1920's, could we swear that we wouldn't have joined SS.

I bet that many of us would have joined.

It's human nature. It's not the Germans being extra talented for being thugs.

Some of those Americans were members of Q Klux Clan. And fighting SS in Normandy does not abolish them of their moral burden.

You should observe thing in the context.

And Jason, next time you hear American anthem think of hundreds of thousands of Indians, think of 2 million of Vietnamies, think of Abu grab...and then you come to teach me moral lessons.

Are you so consistent in condemning those things?

If you're so pissed off by even a hint of respect to anything connected to SS, are you equally pissed off with what Americans did in Vietnam, for example?

Those Americans soldiers did not fight the righteous war...they believed that they fight for their country...and they did. Because, one always fights for what he believes he fights for.

Just like in law...the subjective feel is what matters.

And they were drafted and sent to jungle. Does that make them less brave? NO!

Now we all know that they fought in vain, they fought the war that wasn't right at all. But does this make their sacrafice lesser. NO!

Do you shout "Uaaaaa!" listening to the anthem.

Sure you don't!And you shouldn't!

OR, according to you, now we all should blame all the Americans for what happened there?

And whenever someone speaks of Nam Vets we should shout (just like you did):

"NO, those were thugs who fought imperialistic war of occupation, and we shouldn't be celebrating their victims...for the cause they fougt for was wrong".

The world is not black and white. And you're not on the white side. And since you're not, you shouldn't be giving moral lessons around.

We all have our burdens, and "the one without a sin should cast a first stone"...since there are no one such around...LET IT BE!!!

You were so "easy on the trigger" to judge SS, and you were so quiet on some other things...

"Do not judge lest thee be judged yourself!"

It's all just shades of gray, and we all should have that in mind.

Greetings to all, (although I'm a bit pissed off by some of you) and please calm the things down.

If I only knew of what the emotional turmoil would my Prokhorovka notice would cause...I wouldn't have posted it.

[ July 19, 2005, 04:06 AM: Message edited by: von Churov ]

[Sergei]

Originally posted by von Churov:

It's just a history that I speak about.

And remember:

"The one who does not remember history, is doomed to live it again".

So I just do my share of remembering the history, in order to prevent it from happening once again.

In that case, you should try to hone your memory. Worship of murderers as 'heroes' is THE PROBLEM, not the solution. Admittedly, Hitler was a brave man in WWI - he got an Iron Cross for that, too. But he certainly doesn't deserve our admiration.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by zmoney:

Now would it be proper to call all US and colalition forces in Iraq perverts because some idiots at Abu grab screwed around a bit? Or even worse I've heard those brave men from the colalition called war criminals. So is that right to call all of them includeing myself war criminals? The answer is obviously NO.

Obviously. Is it then right to call all of them as heroes? No, obviously - it'd be absurd to label every cook and clerk as heroes regardless of what they did. Whether someone deserves admiration for his or her deeds, depends on his OWN deeds. Only.

[von Churov]

This is insane!

I haven't used a word HERO!

Simply, because SS weren't heroes.

I did not dub the SS heroes, I just said that they were brave, and that they died what they believed for. I didn't say that they were goodies.

And a brave man that dies for a cause (no matter how stupid the cause is) in such a big battle, a battle that created and changed the history, deserves some respect. He had guts. And he found something more valuable than his own life to fight for.

I am really tired of this bull****!

[Sergei]

Originally posted by von Churov:

He had guts. And he found something more valuable than his own life to fight for.

According to another version, he was simply misguided. I.e. stupid.