von Churov Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Today is 62 exactly years since tank clash at Prokhorovka! The hammer and the anvil clash, that the mankind will remember for good! A minute of silence in the respect of all the brave soldiers on both sides who fought and died for what they believed in! Today we all play CMBB Prokhorovka-Finale. Comments? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Today is also my birthday, w0000t!!!!111 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Originally posted by von Churov: Today is 62 exactly years since tank clash at Prokhorovka! The hammer and the anvil clash, that the mankind will remember for good! A minute of silence in the respect of all the brave soldiers on both sides who fought and died for what they believed in! Today we all play CMBB Prokhorovka-Finale. Comments? I recommend you play "Tank Warning' instead. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Sorry, I have no respect for those who fought and died for what they believed in. Those who believed in any of it are beneath compassion. Those on the other hand who died fighting to keep their friends alive etc, without believing a word of any of it, have all my sympathy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmavis Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Originally posted by JasonC: Sorry, I have no respect for those who fought and died for what they believed in. Those who believed in any of it are beneath compassion. Those on the other hand who died fighting to keep their friends alive etc, without believing a word of any of it, have all my sympathy. Well, aren't you just controversial? Maybe you should just stick to giving gameplay advice instead of stepping on the toes of someone who bothered to remember a little history. Kingfish, can you point me in the direction of "Tank Warning"? I can't find it at the SD. As for me, I love celebrating WW2 anniversaries. Happy Prokhorovka Day! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Here is the download link for Tank Warning. It is designed by Franko. If you want to experience the entire Kursk Pack, of which Tank Warning is part of, then click here. Another recommendation is "Ponyri Express" designed by Jwxspoon. 'Tis evil. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Originally posted by Shmavis: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JasonC: Sorry, I have no respect for those who fought and died for what they believed in. Those who believed in any of it are beneath compassion. Those on the other hand who died fighting to keep their friends alive etc, without believing a word of any of it, have all my sympathy. Well, aren't you just controversial? Maybe you should just stick to giving gameplay advice instead of stepping on the toes of someone who bothered to remember a little history.</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmavis Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Thanks, Kingfish! I remember you mentioning it in a discussion of "Der Manstein Kommt!" and wanted to give it a try. Sergei, I think von Churov's comment was simply meant to commemorate the titanic struggle that the battle of Kursk was, not to exclude anyone. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Originally posted by Shmavis: Sergei, I think von Churov's comment was simply meant to commemorate the titanic struggle that the battle of Kursk was, not to exclude anyone. I did understand that, but I just find such phrases a bit tacky and quite incorrect. My grandfathers certainly weren't asked if they believed in whatever they were supposed to fight for (fortunately not die for). For them, like with the vast majority of soldiers in WW2, it was a matter of conscription, not recruiting for idealistic reasons, and most of the time in real conditions patriotism or ideology wasn't a motivator as strong as comradeship and fear of punishment were. Anyway, all people who had to go through such hardships for reasons beyond their control deserve our sympathy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Just started playing Tank Warning... its a real blood bath. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmavis Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Hmmm. The links aren't functioning. I guess B&T is down right now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobs_ladder2 Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Well, how about we just remember that they died, period. That in itself is enough. I'm sure every one of them believed in something. Be it their children, their future, their country, their girlfriends, their friends, their eternal soul or whatever. On that day, for those men, their beliefs and everything else came to an end. That loss, independantly of anything else, merits a moment's thought. Paul 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Just checked, and they both opened for me. Tell me which one you want and I'll e-mail it to you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Oh I've given it well more than a moment's thought I assure you, and my considered opinion is that the ones who believed in what they were doing are the ones whose deaths we should toast, celebrate, and cheer, and the ones caught up in gigantic events beyond their control just trying to save the men next to them are the ones we should sympathize with. Since the original poster invited me to consider the believers among them as somehow heroic and I know for a fact they are exactly the ones who were utter rogues and better off blown to atoms, I registered my violent disagreement with the sentiment. It is not like I am the one who brought it up. And there are no equivalences involved, no "whatever they believed" horsefeathers, as though that makes no difference when it makes all the difference in the world. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmavis Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Originally posted by Kingfish: Just checked, and they both opened for me. Tell me which one you want and I'll e-mail it to you. Ah. It figures that they'd start functioning after I quit. I'll check out TW for now. Thanks for the offer, though! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Europa Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Originally posted by JasonC: Oh I've given it well more than a moment's thought I assure you, and my considered opinion is that the ones who believed in what they were doing are the ones whose deaths we should toast, celebrate, and cheer, and the ones caught up in gigantic events beyond their control just trying to save the men next to them are the ones we should sympathize with. Since the original poster invited me to consider the believers among them as somehow heroic and I know for a fact they are exactly the ones who were utter rogues and better off blown to atoms, I registered my violent disagreement with the sentiment. It is not like I am the one who brought it up. And there are no equivalences involved, no "whatever they believed" horsefeathers, as though that makes no difference when it makes all the difference in the world. Your a very special creature Jason. So... straight ahead all the time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobs_ladder2 Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Originally posted by JasonC: Oh I've given it well more than a moment's thought I assure you, and my considered opinion is that the ones who believed in what they were doing are the ones whose deaths we should toast, celebrate, and cheer, and the ones caught up in gigantic events beyond their control just trying to save the men next to them are the ones we should sympathize with. Since the original poster invited me to consider the believers among them as somehow heroic and I know for a fact they are exactly the ones who were utter rogues and better off blown to atoms, I registered my violent disagreement with the sentiment. It is not like I am the one who brought it up. And there are no equivalences involved, no "whatever they believed" horsefeathers, as though that makes no difference when it makes all the difference in the world. So, your goal was to see your objection noted? You saw a post, written by a person with no visible alterior motive, wishing for a simple rememberance of lost lives and your only thought was to have your objection noted? Is that a fair assessment of your thought process? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 I saw SS thugs extolled as heros, and was invited to join in the clapping. So I explained exactly what I think of holding up SS thugs as heros. While making due allowance for those who did not believe a word of it, but were simply caught up in something too large, and for similar sins on the other side. Deaths of men who died for their belief in Adolph Hitler, we should cheer, and I for one do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobs_ladder2 Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Originally posted by JasonC: I saw SS thugs extolled as heros, and was invited to join in the clapping. So I explained exactly what I think of holding up SS thugs as heros. While making due allowance for those who did not believe a word of it, but were simply caught up in something too large, and for similar sins on the other side. Deaths of men who died for their belief in Adolph Hitler, we should cheer, and I for one do. Really? I saw nothing of the sort. At what point did the original poster "extoll SS thugs as heroes"? I'll answer my own question. He did not. That was not his intention as any rational person would have recognized immediately. You saw an opportunity to impress us all with your boundless intellect and seized upon it with no regard for the sensitivity of the subject matter. Stop trying to pretend otherwise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annihilate_this_week Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 Don't even the hardest germanophile gamers draw a line at trying to whitewash the SS? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 "the brave soldiers on both sides who fought and died for what they believed in" If written about D-Day, nothing to complain about. Written of Prokhorovka, one side is the Leibstandarte Adolph Hitler. Those who "believed in" what they were fighting for in LSSAH were rogues whose deaths I cheer. I didn't bring up what the soldiers believed in, the original poster did. Perhaps the goons of LSSAH killed his forefathers and he was being magnanimous, that is his affair. But I'm not going sit here and watch those goons extolled for what they believed in, any more than I'd sit still to hear the London bombers extolled for what they believed in. There are no moral equivalences involved, and no they are not remotely forgiven. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLM Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 If my country country were invaded I would believe in the cause. What there's no good guy in war, is that supposed to be the moral? There's no side that the world would be better off if they won and their soldiers know it? We're not allowed to pretend we know we're the good guys when we are? People are scum for that? [ July 17, 2005, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: PLM ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 You can believe the German invasion of Russia must be stopped. You can't believe in the extermination of the Kulaks as a class. You can just be trying to save the man next to you. You can't be trying to create an Aryan master race by slaughtering the untermenschen. It is all obvious and not complicated, and everyone pretending to be offended is pretending. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Churov Posted July 18, 2005 Author Share Posted July 18, 2005 Originally posted by jacobs_ladder2: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JasonC: I saw SS thugs extolled as heros, and was invited to join in the clapping. So I explained exactly what I think of holding up SS thugs as heros. While making due allowance for those who did not believe a word of it, but were simply caught up in something too large, and for similar sins on the other side. Deaths of men who died for their belief in Adolph Hitler, we should cheer, and I for one do. Really? I saw nothing of the sort. At what point did the original poster "extoll SS thugs as heroes"? I'll answer my own question. He did not. That was not his intention as any rational person would have recognized immediately. You saw an opportunity to impress us all with your boundless intellect and seized upon it with no regard for the sensitivity of the subject matter. Stop trying to pretend otherwise. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Churov Posted July 18, 2005 Author Share Posted July 18, 2005 Originally posted by JasonC: I saw SS thugs extolled as heros, and was invited to join in the clapping. So I explained exactly what I think of holding up SS thugs as heros. While making due allowance for those who did not believe a word of it, but were simply caught up in something too large, and for similar sins on the other side. Deaths of men who died for their belief in Adolph Hitler, we should cheer, and I for one do. As of "SS Thugs". I'm not trying to abolish them, but you should know the differece between Algemeine SS, and Waffen SS. It's heaven and earth, difference. The later were (almost) regulary soldiers, although they were drafted by Himler (and doctrinated by him too.) And no one could deny them being the best soldiers in the WWII battlefields. First three SS Div's (1 LSSAH, 2 Das Reich, 3 Totenkopf) were the true elite in those days, and in the scope of this forum and this game (CMBB) that's all that counts. The things that you reffer to are completely out of the scope of what I said and what this forum is about. Don't tell me that you have never tried to play CM as German side with SS troops. If you did (and we all know that you did, as we all did), than you are to blame yourself for cheering for "SS Thugs" at least for the course of the game. Are you sure that Michael Witmann was thug? Are you sure that Ernst Barkmann was thug? They had nothing to do with war crimes or atrocites. They were just a fine soldiers who performed their duty with ultimate bravery and skill. Are you sure that they had a clue on National Socialism? Do you think that they had a contact with concentration camps? Do you really think that they knew on "final solution"? They felt an elite...because they were a sort of an elite. And they were in SS because they were the best around. Being best their only alternative to SS was GD. Once more, I'm not trying to abolish SS (I know of their crimes A LOT more that you do, as my family suffered them painfully) but I don't want to paint it black and white. Generalization must be avoided. So, my friend I'm not a neo-nazi and I didn't invite you to cheer the SS deeds, I called you all guys to remember the greatest tank battle in the history and those who participated (and died) in it, and to cheer them all and their sacrafice without difference in terms of side and without difference in terms of politics. So, don't try to invite politics in this, cause I din't do it too. Regards! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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