Excellent Armor Book

[Elefant]

Hello all, I picked up a book tonight Armor Battles of the Waffen SS 1943-45 by Will Fey

ISBN 0-8117-2905-2. Gripping, inside the turret accounts of tank battles at the platoon level and below.

[Blue Streak]

I found a good book too! it's called tanks and armored vehicles of world war 1 and 2 good technical specs on all allied and axis tanks, half tracks and mobile arty.

worth a look

[Zveroboy]

I recently bought the whole serie of Kurowski books (Stackpole edition), including Panzer Aces I & II and Armor Battles of the Waffen SS and I have to say I was quite disappointed.

Maybe it is because I have been reading Glantz a lot, but I was not impressed at all by the Kurowski/Fey books. The translation is not that great, it is very poorly written and the actions described in the books are not too detailed either.

The only one worth reading imho is the one about Otto Carius : Tigers in the Mud.

[Sirocco]

I quite enjoyed the Panzer and Infantry Aces books. The Glantz book on Kursk was hard work, in comparison, and for me the Carius book was overwhelmed at times with his portrayal of the German people as victims. I haven't read the Armor Battles book, but volumes that deal with small unit actions are welcome.

[Rob Murray]

I haven't read the Carius or Fey books. I agree with the opinion expressed about Kurowski's books. He seems to rely too heavily on anecdotes & his books are poorly witten ( whether that's the effect of the translation or not I don't know ). Glantz' books are generally well written ( the only title that I didn't care for was Kharkov, 1942: Anatomy of a Military Disaster ).

I have Sledgehammers!: Strengths and Flaws of Tiger Tank Battalions in World War II by Christopher Wilbeck on order. It gets a very good review on the Stone & Stone Military Book Review site. You can get it here & see excerpts from & reviews of the book.

[Elefant]

Zeveroboy, I am a little further into the book and yes, the translation is a little off, but some of the stories are great. For Infantry stories I recommend The Forgotten Soldier, by Guy Sajer. If you can get it, try Knights of the Black Cross. Finally, the memoirs of Hans Von Luck are better than Guderians if you can believe it.

[Zveroboy]

Carius has indeed a tendency to forget that Germany was the aggressor in this war.

Nevertheless I found his book really interesting. The chapters are short thus easy to read and it appears that he based a big part of his book on combat reports from his division that he managed to save after the war. It is therefore pretty detailed and much more readable than the rest of the serie.

It also has a couple of good maps and I couldnt help thinking that there is lot of cmbb scenario material especially about the fighting around Narwa and the Strachwitz Operation.

Glantz on the other hand is rather dry and it is definitely hard to read more than a dozen of pages at a time.

But you can pretty much follow the action day by day and I found the maps excellent.

It gives you a pretty good understanding of the battle.

Elefant : yes I have read Von Luck already, my next purchase will probably be grenadier by Kurt Meyer when it is available.

Rob : what's wrong with Glantz book on Kharkov? I was considering buying it... Can anyone recommend a good book on Kharkov ?

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Zveroboy:

Rob : what's wrong with Glantz book on Kharkov? I was considering buying it... Can anyone recommend a good book on Kharkov ?

I have the book on Kharkov and found it to be as well written as the rest of Glantz's books. It depends on which Kharkov fight you are looking for. The famous SS recapture of Kharkov is covered very well from the German side by George M. Nipe, Jr. in "Last Victory in Russia: The SS-Panzerkorps and Manstein's Kharkov Counteroffensive February-March 1943".

It's a bit pricey but there are a couple of scenarios on every page of that book and it is 353 pages of text. Kharkov is my favorite battle ground and this covers the time period better than any other single volume I've ever seen.

[GillFish]

Zveroboy,

You may know this already, but it looks like Stackpole is re-releasing 'Grenadiers' in April. Found info here:

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?isbn=0811731979

[Alkiviadis]

I found the Carius book outstanding in it's descriptions of small unit action. And "Last Victory in Russia" is an outstanding read as well. I have "Shelgehammers..." but only just started it, the author is a serving officer with the US 1st Cav & has a forward by Carius. If one can find it "Hell's Gate" by Douglas E. Nash (MZM Imports) is an incredible history of the battle of the Korsun Pocket, many interviews of participants from both sides, lots of detailed small unit actions as well as the big picture, great maps & photos...truly harrowing; it's right up there at the top (again by an US Army officer).

[Zveroboy]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

While browsing amazon I found this :

It looks like there is a new Glantz book due march 2005.

Colossus Reborn: The Red Army At War, 1941-1943

816 pages :eek:

[Steiner14]

Elefant,

i recently finished Will Fey's 'Panzerkampf im Bild', which is probably the same, but the big-format version with lots of pictures.

Yes, it's one of the best books dealing objectively with the slandered Waffen-SS and also contains interesting unknown or withheld info (what really happened at Malmedy, the end of Martin Bormann, Michael Wittmann, the private letter from the US-chief prosecuting-attorney to Jochen Peiper after the war,...).

What makes this book IMO so precious, are the uncensored and authentic, without political glasses and political correctness 1st hand accounts of the tank-commanders.

A real relief among all the politically inspired worthless books.

But readers like Zveroboy ('Carius has indeed a tendency to forget that Germany was the aggressor in this war.'), who expect even from the single soldier's first hand accounts a politically correct and instrumentalized winner-history, being glad of losing the war and about the dying of the comrades and the suffering of the civilians, will be disappointed.

Authentic history is never onedimensional.

Very impressive to me in general was not only the obvious mental strenght, discipline and comradeship, but even more the neutral and factual style of the accounts, especially torwards the end in the east, where the martyrdom of the german population is only touched insofar, as it is necessary to understand the fighting to the last bullet.

That also not a single bitching word from a commander is lost against Wehrmacht units or that theyself stood where they were put, while all others left and afterwards were not honored but even were denounced from the own people, gives an impression of the character of this true elite in this book.

This book can't be compared to books from Glantz, Carell or Kurovski, which only are interpreted history. This book does not collect, interpret and summarize like the historian does, it simply tells how the writers saw the action.

It is 1st hand history.

Because of it's authenticity and the rare objective look from the 'other side', i can only highly recommend the german book 'Panzerkampf im Bild' by Will Fey.

[ December 25, 2004, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Steiner14 ]

[Zveroboy]

Originally posted by Steiner14:

Yes, it's one of the best books dealing objectively with the slandered Waffen-SS and also contains interesting unknown or withheld info (what really happened at Malmedy, the end of Martin Bormann, Michael Wittmann, the private letter from the US-chief prosecuting-attorney to Jochen Peiper after the war,...).

Yes because we all know SS were poor victims and Peiper was a choirboy.

hello????

Is this the same poor waffen-ss who were forced to join the army.. oh wait they were mostly volunteers .. Oops there goes your argument.

Originally posted by Steiner14:

But readers like Zveroboy ('Carius has indeed a tendency to forget that Germany was the aggressor in this war.'), who expect even from the single soldier's first hand accounts a politically correct and instrumentalized winner-history, being glad of losing the war and about the dying of the comrades and the suffering of the civilians, will be disappointed.

How do you know what I expect from a book???

In the future please refrain from putting words into my mouth to support whatever agenda you may

have.

You obviously have a big chip on your shoulder and it is not my fault if my readings somehow offend your revisionnist drivel.

FYI my comment was directed at Sirocco's post and I was praising Carius' book in spite of the fact that it is *not* polically correct (gasp).

Originally posted by Steiner14:

Authentic history is never onedimensional.

Ok now it is clear that you really have have no clue at all. How is a first person account of the war not onedimensional ??

You tell me genius...

Originally posted by Steiner14:

Very impressive to me in general was not only the obvious mental strenght, discipline and comradeship, but even more the neutral and factual style of the accounts, especially torwards the end in the east, where the martyrdom of the german population is only touched insofar, as it is necessary to understand the fighting to the last bullet.

martyr :

1 One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.

2 One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.

So you start a fight, get your ass kicked and then you are a martyr ?

I'll show you martyrdom :

I am fully aware of the Red Army exactions in Germany in 1945 but that doesnt make the german

population a martyr. As sad and cold-hearted as it sounds it was just payback.

Might is right is a double edged sword, a dangerous motto.

By starting an aggression war you deny yourself the possiblity to claim foul when it all goes wrong.

You have no moral ground whatsoever when you choose to use strength to reach your goals and then it somehow backfires and you have the suffer the consequences of your act.

Originally posted by Steiner14:

This book can't be compared to books from Glantz, Carell or Kurovski, which only are interpreted history.

The fact that you lump Glantz,Carell or Kurovski together is further proof that you're either a troll or completely delusionnal.

Originally posted by Steiner14:

Because of it's authenticity and the rare objective look from the 'other side', i can only highly recommend the german book 'Panzerkampf im Bild' by Will Fey.

Well if only having one side of the story is objective then yes this book is as objective as it gets ...

have a nice day

[Steiner14]

Zveroboy,

as i already said, people like you (torturing & mass-raping = payback) will not understand the preciousness of authentic 1st hand accounts at all.

Stay with your politically correct literature.

[Zveroboy]

Erm I think I understand pretty well the interest of first hand accounts..... as well as their inherent bias and limitations. But that obviously went right above your head.

It is funny how you seem to ignore 90% of my post and only focus on a single point. The truth is that your logic is both pernicious and full of holes. But then again that has never stopped people like you.

The portrayal of Germans in WWII as victims is simply disgusting and it is an insult to all the innocent people the SS murdered.

Stick to your SS propaganda.

[RCHRD]

Steiner14, What's with your sig? This is a non political forum and I'm not much interested in your prejudices.

[Steiner14]

@RCHRD:

What is with my sig?

@Zveroboy:

Guilt is always and only a personal category.

Therefore only single persons and not groups can be held responsible for their actions and not persons for the actions of others.

Your supporting of clan-liability and most awful crimes is not ok.

Additionally i want to remark, if you claim, the Russian soldiers became mass-rapists because for payback, you imply nothing else, that the Nazi-propaganda were right, because then they indeed were Untermenschen (following the strange 'logic': what the Germans did to them was that awful, that they turned into mass-rapists).

No normal mental healthy soldier will ever become a rapist, because for 'payback' and this 'argument' is a most primitive and an easy to refute propaganda-trick of the Soviets, to excuse the raging of the soldiers against helpless female civilians, and that the completely honor-free propaganda they used, which had been used never before in such a quality by any army, was the reason.

The Russians are a way to civilized culture-nation, that this awful denouncement would be justified.

They did what they did, because this omnipresent and unbelievable most primitive Ehrenburg-hate-propaganda waked and supported the lowest instincts (when we will be in Germany, take their wifes and children, take what they have, then it will be yours, kill the fascist creatures wherever you meet them!) every army tries to suppress and only this criminal propaganda put the Soviet soldier in this extraordinary psychic state.

And not because Russians were animals and rape women for payback!

I'm asking myself why i discuss with someone, who doesn't even know the difference between W-SS and certain single SS police-commandos.

[ December 26, 2004, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Steiner14 ]

[Zveroboy]

If you think only einsatzkommando committed atrocities and the waffen-ss didn't, you are sadly mistaken.

Oh and btw I have never said that mass rapes were justified. No one can defend such terrible exactions. Two wrongs dont make a right.

It is however really naive and hypocritical to expect the russians to have mercy when Hitler's plan was basically to enslave the soviet population.

[Steiner14]

The reason, how the Soviet propaganda was shaped, had nothing to do with a good or bad Hitler, nor with Devils and Angels.

That is schoolbook history, but if you are really interested in understanding history, i can suggest you first to learn how to identify and seperate moralizing propaganda phrases from rational facts and arguments.

The reason why the Soviet propaganda was how it was, was because of clear rational facts and conclusions and not because Hitler 'wanted to enslave the soviet population'.

[Zveroboy]

OK now do yourself a favor and stop assuming things about what I know and what I don't. You keep doing it and have made a fool of yourself every time.

I am really fed up with your specious arguments.

You are the one who seem to see everything in black and white.

Guess what there was propaganda on both sides.

Oh yes my bad I forgot Hitler wanted to turn Soviet Union into a giant amusement park.

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Steiner14:

@RCHRD:

What is with my sig?

I have been thinking about your sig for a while. I didn't want to bring it up because it has the potential of taking a discussion into the political, which is, of course, no longer accepted here.

Now, I did a search for the origin of your quote, and as far as I know, it's a single source, off the record quote, which would make it particularly unreliable. If that is the case then I hope you'd consider removing it. If it isn't then I'd be interested to see the relevant information.

[Shmavis]

You know, it never ceases to amaze me how quickly we stray from the topic. Hmmm...my wife just shot me in the crotch with a rubber pellet pistol. Why did the kids get her that for Christmas? I hope everyone had a wonderful one. I own Will Fey's book and enjoyed the personal accounts, but it was not an objective work, as any engagement where the SS didn't shine or at least perform adequately is either ignored or barely mentioned. I only recently discovered that Kurt "Panzer" Meyer *gasp* surrendered! Tore off his SS runes, if I remember correctly. Fey and Kurowski failed to mention his fate and I had wondered about it.

[Steiner14]

Sirocco,

although i don't think, i have to justify my signature, i can tell you, that this quote is from a dialogue with Shimon Peres, who lamented, that Sharon may be risking problems with the USA and Israel may lose the support of the USA, if they continue with their politics and Sharon answered, that all those being afraid about consequences from the USA, forget that...[sig]

In this dialogue 'Americans' doesn't mean the people, but the politicians, if that confused you.

[ December 26, 2004, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Steiner14 ]

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Steiner14:

although i don't think, i have to justify my signature

We all have to justify our sigs. The point is your quote is potentially inflammatory and offensive.

i can tell you, that this quote is from a dialogue with Shimon Peres, who lamented, that Sharon may be risking problems with the USA and Israel may lose the support of the USA, if they continue with their politics and Sharon answered, that all those being afraid about consequences from the USA, forget that...

Could you include a link to a definitive report? As I mentioned the source appears to be a single individual allegedly overhearing an off the record conversation, which would make it unreliable.

[spartan1]

Berlin: the downfall 1945 by Antony Beevor is a book that I would suggest for anyone interested not only in the battle aspects but also to the attrocities of Red army and how unhuman they treated the German population, raping and killing anything standing on their way and I am sorry to hear that somebody can call this a "payback" to the previous German attrocities.

We all need to pray for the victims of this war from any side they come from.