Pz IV tactics?

[Rob Murray]

I have a question regarding using Pz IV's ( all models ). What is the best way to use them in an attack/assault type battle? It seems to me that they're pretty weakly (sp?) armoured. I've seen them knocked out with the Stuart's puny 37mm. My point is that they don't seem to be able to take too much punishment.

Thanks in advance.

[flamingknives]

Stand off is one trick - the 75mmL48 is quite a long-range gun. Side and rear are weak, so keeping your distance reduces the side angle.

The turret front is also weak (see poor ole PzIV thread in the CMAK forum) so keeping out of hull-down is advisable if you're facing 37mm or 76.2mm guns

[Abteilung]

One thing that helps is to constantly move them. Don't let a weakly armored vehicle take up or try and hold a position which can in any way be engaged by enemy heavy weapons. Shoot and scoot is the Pz.IV's mantra (same with all other weakly armored vehicles, e.g. Marder, Hellcat, etc). Use other units with better survivability to "pin" the target for the IV to take out without fear of immediate reply. The late model Pz.III (70mm frontal armor) has better chances vs the U.S. 37mm, so every Tom, Dick or Harry with an armored car can't knock out your MBT frontally at range.

Also DO NOT engage AT guns with the Pz.IV if you can help it, use mortars and MG's for that. Even an entrenched AT gun can be killed quite easily by a mortar (8cm class is best) without worry of reply.

[JasonC]

You can become a great Pz IV driver in three easy steps.

Step One - stop playing the Germans and using only uber-StuGs, Tigers, and Panthers.

Step Two - play the allies. Drive T-34s and Shermans for two months.

Step Three - now play the Germans again, using Pz IVs. "Good golly, this thing bounces almost all front hull hits, and its gun kills absolutely anything at all common tactical ranges! And the turret is still fast, fine MGs, solid ammo supply".

Things the typical allied player would kill to have. To get the relative performance the Pz IV has, the Americans have to buy W+ Sherman 76s with HVSS.

Stop whining, drop the uber StuG crutch, and learn to use tanks that can sometimes be killed. You will appreciate the humble Pz IV in no time.

[Mr. Tittles]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Abteilung]

Stop whining, drop the uber StuG crutch, and learn to use tanks that can sometimes be killed.

Oops, I forgot about the FHA being more effective vs Soviet ordnance than that which was used by Western Allied forces. Been playing a LOT of CMAK lately.

Heh. sorry if it seemed I was complaining, truly I am not. I simply like the M4 Shermans better than I do German or Soviet tanks. They are better all around tanks, imo, when considering all the factors. The Shermans are what I feel is the ultimate culmination of the virtues which made the Pz.Kpfw.III the best offensive platform in the world during it's heydey (early war).

So in a sense, I am a little Allied biased, but I try not to let it show. I do a lot of searching trying to gain a perspective from both sdes, but I do tend to favor (game-wise at least) the equipment with which I am most successful with.

This isn;t saying I can't win a battle with Pz.IV mid-late war. It just takes a lot more care to keep the Pz.IV in it's decidedly narrower envelope of performance. Kind of like a 109 vs a Spitfire in some respects. Sorry if I came across as whining, that was never my intention and never will be.

[JasonC]

The comment wasn't directed at you.

It is simple. Anybody who has played CM for any length of time who still doesn't have any idea how to use a tank that can be penetrated from the front by typical AT weapons, can't have played the allies, pretty much ever (Russians 1941 only, perhaps). And can only have used cherry picked, top of the line uber-armor on the German side.

There isn't any way to play CM on multiple sides and not have seen it before. There isn't any way to play the allies for any length of time, without appreciating any tank with a gun strong enough to hurt most enemies - since most of their plain vanilla tanks can't.

If they want something as thin as the rest of their stuff, but with, in addition, a gun that can actually hurt typical enemies, they have to buy specialized AT shooters - Fireflies, TDs, large SUs, mid war lend lease, captured vehicles. Normally they give up ammo depth, HE ability, MG ability, rate of fire - or pay through the nose. Very rarely do they also get front armor that is effective even on some strongest plates against lesser enemy AT weapons.

A panzer IV G, late, has all of those things. It bounces a solid half off all front hits from the most common enemy main guns, both tank and towed. It is only vulnerable to lighter stealthier guns at short range, flat angle side shots (e.g. Russian 45mm).

It has a fast turret, improved optics, a radio, a 3 man turret with cupola, two MGs with abundant ammo, a sizeable load of useful caliber HE, decent automotive performance. And oh just an afterthought, a gun that will kill practically every allied tank out to any range you will likely to see on a CM map.

Shermans have fast turrets, radios, 3 man turrets, MGs and HE load, and decent automotive performance (though high ground pressure unless HVSS). But they won't bounce German 75mm, any plate. 50mm maybe. Their own gun won't kill half the threats they typically face.

T-34s have 2 man turrets. Early ones, the only period when their armor is effective against some German guns, have no radios. The optics are normal. The gun won't kill a Pz III at medium range without a flank shot, let alone the StuGs and such they typically have to fight against.

CM players fight in both, all the time.

Say an American wants a gun that kills most enemies. He can wait until nearly the end of the war and take a Jackson. Or he can take an M-10 - and get a gun that needs close range and particular plate hits, or very limited tungsten ammo, or both, to kill many of the threats he will face. He gets 1 MG with limited ammo. Limited HE depth. With the M-10, a slow turret.

If a 1943 Russian wants a gun that kills most things, he can take an SU-152 that fires 2 rounds per minute and doesn't have an MG - at +40 rariety. Or he can go lend lease and settle for a Valentine IX, with a gun marginally able to deal with 80mm plates. With weak HE performance, no MG, slow, a 2 man turret.

Only from the "spoiled rotten" perspective is there anything to complain about in the Pz IV, and there is no magic secret to using them effectively. They are tanks, just not ubertanks. They use platoons and cover and teamwork and stalk things and have infantry scout for them and use mortars and FOs to deal with big guns while they duel small ones themselves. Just like the Allies use every tank in the game.

When I recommended step 2 I was being entirely serious. If anybody doesn't know how to handle armor unless it is invulnerable from the front, then they need to get out more and stop playing the Germans, entirely, for two months. When you come back, believe me you will see them differently.

Also, your handling of even the uber stuff will improve. Over reliance on thick front plates engenders complacency and overly passive vehicle tactics.

[Beta1]

I like the PIV, especially the variants with the long(er) 75.

In BB if used well they are excellent tanks. You just musnt use them close up or singly. What you want is at least a pair of them engaging any russian tank (ideally more obviously) at long ranges where their greater accuracy will tell. Against 75mm T34s (probably best equivelent russian tank) they are lethal. Out at 800m or so the T34s will struggle to hit a P4 where as the P4 can KO will hit frequently and KO with most hits. Yes their low armor makes them vunerbale compared to other germans machines but their accuract more than makes up for it.

Like the man said go and learn to drive a firefly or a 76 sherman and use them the same way.

[Joachim]

a) 75L24 types

The short barrelled PzIV are HE chuckers. Use them as such. They support infantry vs local strongpoints.

HEAT is just for self defence (though sometimes your only means of killing T34s). Their preferred method of killing T34s is numbers, surprise and hail fire. Plus lucky hits with the slow HEAT rounds.

75L43 up

They are effectively marders who can stand up vs 45mm, ATRs and HMGs. As such, "Shoot and scoot", short exposure (I prefer "Hunt" timed to arrive around second 45,getting off 2-3 shoots and a quick reverse the next turn) plus keyholing.

You can try and use better armored tanks (PzIII w/70mm frontal) as a shield. Often the TacAI will aim for the target with the higher hit probability. Hit prob is decided by distance and increases with the number of shots fired at a target. So if you show the PzIII before the PzIV and have it significantly closer to the enemy, your PzIV will not get any incoming (until a human player manually adjusts the target for the next turn).

On the offense - use them from a distance. Close in only to mop up infantry.

And always remember: Never go hull down (cf. CMAK thread)...

Gruß

Joachim

[Bone_Vulture]

JasonC has amazing confidence to the PzIV turret front armor? :confused:

[Rob Murray]

Thanks for the help.

*** Possible Spoiler here! ****

I sometimes play the " 2nd Pz Advance " scenario ( yeah, I know it's a tutorial but it's a short one & doesn't take a long time to play ). Anyway my lead Pz IV always seems to get taken out by the pesky 45mm ATG hidden not far from the " jump off " position. :mad: I've tried using Move to Contact, Hunt, Area Fire, etc. Same results everytime. It would be nice to swat the little bugger before I lose a valuable asset. Can anyone help?

Thanks again.

[JasonC]

"JasonC has amazing confidence to the PzIV turret front armor?"

No. I drive all tanks as though they can be hit and killed by any serious AT asset with LOS. Protection of a tank comes from integrated firepower retaliating against the shooter, and from LOS blockage cover breaking enemy shooters up into managable bits at any one time.

I want medium tank armor to make artillery, small arms, MGs, and stealthy light shooters ineffective (that means ATRs, light AA, the smallest ATGs). Everything that can hurt a medium tank must be spottable at range when it fires. That is all the armor needs to do. Firepower, combined arms, and cover do the rest.

This is exactly how the Russians must use their T-34s and how Americans must use their Shermans. Actually, it is significantly easier, because those also have to split up their tanks to create multiple angles of threat, to deal with enemies that can only be killed from a flank. While a Pz IV G will kill practically anything at typical ranges, flank or not.

Can you use them alone? Sure. Allied TDs often hunt alone, as the only upgunned shooter available. How do they do so? They stay in full defilade while infantry ahead spots enemy vehicles. They wait until a target is doing something else, then a short move gets them out of defilade lined up for their shot. They bushwhack the target. They reverse to defilade again, then reposition to another part of the field.

Used to support infantry instead, they stay well back and keyhole to small portions of the enemy front, with only one enemy unit in LOS at a time. Infantry ahead gets full IDs. They chuck HE for a minute to break one target, then move.

"But a hidden ATG might shoot them". Sure, minimizing that is the reason to keyhole the LOS. It can still happen. Have a mortar standing by to KO the gun that does it. This sets up the following combined arms relationship.

1. Nothing can kill the tank except a heavy AT asset. Guns light enough to fire and remain sound contacts won't kill it.

2. If it is a tank itself it will be spotted well ahead of time, and its chances against the tank are no better than even.

3. If it is a heavy ATG, it will be spotted after it fires. It then duels the tank, which (fast turret) has a reasonable chance to win straight off.

4. A mortar or FO will kill the stationary heavy ATG in revenge, even if it wins its duel.

The result is for every tank the attacker brings, the defender needs heavy AT to match, to get no more than a fair chance of holding. Leaving aside ATGs in the wrong places, ATGs KOed by arty prep fire, ATGs overrun by infantry, tanks spotted before they manage to duel - which all generally mean it takes 2 ATGs to get 1 in a perfect conditions duel - and leaving aside any many-on-few advantages - the defender still needs to spend about as many points on heavy AT as the attacker spends on tanks, to get not a "proof" level of AT defense but a coin toss level. Defending AT assets are exchanged off, at best.

A tank simply does not need to be invulnerable from the front to be useful. It is the gun that is useful, above all, with any tank. Invulnerability to small arms and lesser weapons is also important, because it limits the portion of the enemy force that can counter tanks. That is all. Anything more than that is gravy. If the gun kills everything you already have a very powerful tank. If even some of its plates bounce shots from common enemy heavy AT assets, then it is a superior tank.

[Redwolf]

The strengths of the Panzer IV lang are:

1) lots of HE (and AP) ammo and a good basic blast value. The precision of the long 75mm is also a serious advantage when doing HE work.

2) turret, and usually a fast one which is rare for German tanks in CM

3) two MGs with good ammo

4) not overly expensive

5) good suspension and motor, the Panzer IV is a lot more mobile than a StuG III on difficult ground in CM. The turn rates of the StuG are especially horrible, the IV both turns faster and has a turret

All that on top of the basics that it is a solid vehicle with the exception of the front turret and that the 75mm L/43 and especially the L/48 can shred anything Russian short of an IS-3.

If you combine all these factors you will usually come up with this pattern:

1) start off with the Pz IVs standing off, out of LOS. Some other unit advance.

1a) if enemy tanks appear to harass your advancing troops try to get rid of them with the superior long-range hit probability

1b) use your large HE load to generously blast every suspected enemy position to pieces

1c) the smoke rounds may also come in handy

2) later in the battle when your advancing troops have identified most enemy positions you use the superior mobility and the turret in the Panzer IV to advance it where it gets more effective. Obviously you only do that if you have to, but often you will, otherwise you will lose momentum in the advance.

The idea is that single tanks dash out of cover into new cover while the other are still doing overwatch. That means new cover that has LOS only to area you want to engage.

Once the tanks are close use the MGs to preserve HE and try to use tank morale effects (getting behind enemy troops).

A) You enemy may have things that exploit weaknesses in the Panzer IV.

The primary example is 37mm or 2 pounder armed vehicles.

First thing to do if he comes in with those is that you never stand still. They fire faster than you so if you go into a duel their zeroing in will get them the hit much faster than you. Avoid them.

Another thing is that if you buy your own troops you get a 37mm FlaK or FlaK vehicle. These outshoot the single-shot armored cars and Stuarts substantially. You use them as overwatch to protect your Panzer IVs. You don't really have to kill them which might be difficult and risky, but you can seek to force the enemy small shooters to stay where they cannot prevent your Panzer IVs from shooting up their other units.

[Bone_Vulture]

JasonC, there are some flaws in your tactical plan.

The first counter-strike is restricting the maneuvers of your spotting infantry. Foot troops are vulnerable to MG fire when crossing stretches of open terrain. Using similar keyhole tactics when placing MG's and supporting infantry will ideally lead to a situation where the advancing infantry is cut down from positions where the enemy armor can't reach without exposing itself.

Unless you're able to control a thinly spread advance, there'll likely be some patches of forest left where enemy ATG's hide. The key factor with ATG vs. tank duels is cost: anti-tank guns are cheaper to begin with, and even if destroyed, they've still soaked your precious field artillery assets. I've noticed that the most important tactical factor when defending is to wear down - not necessarily stop - the enemy armor force. The defender's armor has the advantage of lurking behind the dug-in infantry, allowing it to chop up soft assaults.

Those are just some pointers I came up with. I'd probably lose a match against you, but personally I feel that an advancing tank needs highly superior armor to survive ambushes from a distance.

(How about a PBEM? )

[TheCrow]

Pz IV long is a great tank, until 44 summer. At this date it become too much vulnerable to enemy AT guns and his gun began to have problem to penetrate some enemy armor. But even after this date it could be useful, like "expendable stuff" and infantry support roles.

Sometimes i have used them with very succes even late war like armored fist. But remember you should use them in great numbers, one or two platoons or even more, and backed with high velocity assault guns or tank destroyers. If your enemy have spent too many points with a handful of expensive A/T guns, will be surprised by your choice.

[JasonC]

BV said "I feel that an advancing tank needs highly superior armor". Then it follows that you've never successfully attacked with the Allies in CM - gamey Churchills and Jumbos aside. The statement is just silly. Only a tiny portion of cherry picked uber-armor is better protected against the rivals it faces in its era, than the Pz IV long. Can only a tiny portion of cherry picked uber-armor attack? Not remotely. Do you prefer to lean on the crutch of completely unrealistic uber-armor, playing only the Germans? That's between you and your grandmother. But pretending the second, if so, means nobody can attack with 9 out of 10 tanks and 3 out of 4 armies, is just absurd.

[Sergei]

I love well-armed medium tanks such as Pz-IV lang. You don't have to pay so much buckaroo for the protection as for the heavies like Panther and KV-85, which still would get killed due to carelessness. The magic is not in sustaining hits, it is in not being hit.

I fondly remember a CMBO PBEM in which I had bought a Pz-IV and two Marders, plus an IG75 (it nailed a Priest). With a good use of terrain they did wonders to the US tanks without taking a single hit. If he had cherry-picked Jumbos and such, of course the story would be different.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Rob Murray:

Thanks for the help.

*** Possible Spoiler here! ****

I sometimes play the " 2nd Pz Advance " scenario ( yeah, I know it's a tutorial but it's a short one & doesn't take a long time to play ). Anyway my lead Pz IV always seems to get taken out by the pesky 45mm ATG hidden not far from the " jump off " position. :mad: I've tried using Move to Contact, Hunt, Area Fire, etc. Same results everytime. It would be nice to swat the little bugger before I lose a valuable asset. Can anyone help?

Thanks again.

Hunt etc. only work with spotted units. A hidden, dug-in ATG will usually spot first and decide when to fire (ie it uses hide and a covered arc), or unhides at the beginning of a turn. You won't stand a chance to deny it the first shot - except when you lead with infantry. Your goal is to deny it a 2nd or 3rd shot. By retaliating ASAP with anything you have. And this means during the turn. If the ATG can fire several shots at short distance, the tank is dead.

You deny shots if you are able to pin the bugger. Once it is pinned, time is on your side.

Patch 1.03 removed the "ATG behind crest" problem vs direct HE fire. So it should be possible to actually hit the gun with tank guns. But in good defilade, the gun is still hard to hit from a flat trajectory. So you need more firepower or mortars.

If you hit a suspected position with area fire, you must target for the exact position. This is what JasonC means when he speaks of "full IDs". Their position is known. If it is a gun, it will probably not move, so even a generic marker afterwards will mark the position, Or the foxhole is still visible. If the gun moves, it will be visible and need time to set up, so you won't encounter this.

Blast the gun till you know it is dead or make sure it receives continuous pinning fire once pinned and then move in for the kill. You need less fire to keep something pinned, but forgetting the target after it pins is a mistake. You know it is dead when you see an according marker, one of your units is credited with it or the generic marker shows no terrain in the controlpanel.

Close counts with HE - but hitting the general area only works with 150mm or up. Firing at a sound contact will need a Sturmtiger for reliable results.

Area fire does not work when the target is overridden by something else. A classic is the "area fire at ATG position - gun unhides as it feels discovered - tank acquires target - gun pins - pinning hides it - target lost" sequence.

Use small covered arcs to keep your area fire sticky. Then 2 tanks firing one turn could work. Or one tank firing while you advance on the gun.

Gruß

Joachim

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Joachim:

You know it is dead when you see an according marker, one of your units is credited with it or the generic marker shows no terrain in the controlpanel.

Also look for infantry partial ID's appearing at the gun position.

[Mr. Tittles]

JasonC has clearly objected to the UberStuG in other threads. Its interesting that he accepts the PanzerIV-tincan modeling.

The StuG may be getting overmodeling from the curved armor on its upperstructure. the PanzerIV clearly gets undermodeling from the simplistic hit distribution the game uses.

I agree that a real tanker would avoid getting hit at all costs. There is just so much minor damage that can occur even if there is sufficient armor to give a degree of protection. Even Tigers could not stand repeated hits as damage to sub-systems, tracks and even the armor itself (cracks, etc) can occur.

Realistically, Panzer IVH/J could face certain threats and react accordingly. An example is StuG units. They would try to engage the enemy between 600-1200 meters and avoid engaging any AT weapon under 600 meters. This doctrine is a snap shot in time. It may only be applicable to eastern front vs T34/76, 45mm, etc.

[Mr. Tittles]

Heres how to use Panzer IV:

1. Buy a StuG for each Panzer IV

2. Advance the StuGs while the Panzer IVs overwatch/hide or are in reverse slopes ready to shoot n scoot.

3. The StuGs will shrug off all hits and then the Panzer IVs can pop up and smoke all the shooters.

So whats wrong with this picture?

[Bone_Vulture]

What comes to the conflicts between my tactics and JasonC's, it really boils down to game engine mechanics.

As stated earlier, the PzIV might be a victim of the hit distribution system. Personally, I find most of my tanks being destroyed by ambush shots, where the tank is pounded before it can return fire. Thus, I feel that the tank requires enough armor to survive several direct hits. Not an über-armor, though, but just enough to make it probable that the tank will shrug of the shots. I see this happening with late Stugs, not PzIV's.

[JasonC]

What's wrong with this picture is CM players only ever use cherry picked overmodeled StuGs, the rariety system lets them, the pricing model thinks 2 MGs and a turret are vastly more important than no thin front plates, and the like. There isn't anything wrong with the Pz IV.

[Bone_Vulture]

The "cherry picking" claim is very much true. If the Stug / PzIV prices were reversed, I'd go for the PzIV.

In the current price model, I'll go for the more durable, cheap tank.

[Thresh1642]

I find that waiting to commit my tanks to Battle, no matter which side I am playing or what type they are, works best. Never lead with them, and posistion them (if the terrain allows) to get to either the flank or the center from where they are placed. If the points are high enough, I buy two platoons and usually (depends on the map) end up putting one on a flank with a couple of scout cars in the middle.

One of the things I forced myself as a newer player to do was to commit to playing longer games. My expierence has been games are more often than not won or lost in the last 10 turns than the first 10 turns. By waiting for things to develop and then committing your armor, you are more likely to be able to recover from a bad posistion.

Playing Early War Soviets will also force you to become more adept at running armor, especially if you don't take T-34's.