Newbie wanting to appreciate CBMM needs help

[GerryCMBB]

Hello All:

First time poster. Playing a bit with the demo. Have played ASL fro a number of years and really like the control (I think) I have over the situation plus the detail in the game. I can see my tactics/strategies succeed or fail.

However, when I try CMBB I cannot really see how I am influencing the outcome (please don't blow a gasket). Take Yelnia Starie (sp?) in the demo. What can I as the Russian attacker do here to win the scenario as opposed to just pushing wood (men, tanks) forward.

Or in Citadel Schwerpunkt? Here I seem to just Hunt with the tanks.

What I am trying is to appreciate CMBB as it seems an excellent game. But I cannot see how I am affecting this as the play is so "automatic".

Thanks in advance,

Gerry

[Krazy Canuck]

Originally posted by GerryCMBB:

Hello All:

First time poster. Playing a bit with the demo. Have played ASL fro a number of years and really like the control (I think) I have over the situation plus the detail in the game. I can see my tactics/strategies succeed or fail.

However, when I try CMBB I cannot really see how I am influencing the outcome (please don't blow a gasket). Take Yelnia Starie (sp?) in the demo. What can I as the Russian attacker do here to win the scenario as opposed to just pushing wood (men, tanks) forward.

Or in Citadel Schwerpunkt? Here I seem to just Hunt with the tanks.

What I am trying is to appreciate CMBB as it seems an excellent game. But I cannot see how I am affecting this as the play is so "automatic".

Thanks in advance,

Gerry

Gerry,

Think real life. Winning a war is about taking out more of the enemies assets than you lose. I honestly do not remember the demo's, but I recall reading that they really are not indicative of the game itself. They were easy, the game is not.

The real(for me) enjoyment in the game is going head to head with a human opponent, that's where CMBB truely shines.

KC

[bbaker]

The Canuck is right, the demo scenarios aren't really indicative of much of the rest of the game. I think there was even some concern about them back when the demo was first released and then discussion about why they chose those scenarios, exactly... I think the answer was to highlight changes made to the engine since CM:BO more than to provide a comprehensive experience of CM:BB.

Played against a skilled opponent, it provides a superbly complex tactical challenge. The prior incarnation of CM kept me playing for two years and I never felt like I had learned it all or mastered the game. It's amazing.

[RSColonel_131st]

Playing against a human, or high-level AI, you will find that what you do DOES make a difference.

I'm currently perfecting my attacking skills with mechanized forces - interaction between infantry, armor and artillery is something I tend to think about even when I'm in bed already.

It's just one example where you can do things a hundred different ways, with a hundred different results.

[Battlefront.com]

bbaker,

I think the answer was to highlight changes made to the engine since CM:BO more than to provide a comprehensive experience of CM:BB

Correct. From a practical standpoint it isn't possible to have a demo provide a "comprehensive experience". I would argue that the near 70 scenarios on the CD don't even scratch the surface

Gerry,

The main thing to remember is that there is always room for the player to influence the game. Sure, you can just tell all your guys to move forward (as attacker) or sit in place and return fire (as defender). And sometimes this might even result in a favorable outcome. But will it yield the best outcome? Probably not. Will it leave you open for defeat? Often yes.

Very often the beginning of an advance towards the enemy isn't very tactically challenging for the attacker. And for the defender, generally it means sitting around for a while. But once you start to identify where the enemy is at, things change. Perhaps not a lot at first, or perhaps radically. Totally depends on the scenario and how things go. Once the serious shooting starts, that is when player influence is most critical. Again, taking a fairly hands off approach MIGHT work out OK, but generally it won't.

Another thing to keep in mind about the demo... it is not really supposed to be played more than a couple of times. Much of the success of a good scenario depends on the other side not knowing exactly what awaits him and generally how the battle will play out. For example...

If you play the Kursk scenario as the attacker after playing the defender AND you have the AI stick to starting positions, it is pretty easy to roll into combat without doing much fancy tactical maneuvering. But if you play as the attacker first... just moving forward using Hunt is not the best tactic to use. Bounding Overwatch, with arcs, is the best way to advance. This is something that takes quite a bit of skill to do well.

Anyway... I'll let others chime in here, but safe to say that with 7 nations, hundreds of unit types, and 4 years of combat in every climatic and terrain condition... with unlimited scenarios (Quick Battles and custom made)... there is plenty out there to play with and influence. Best evidence... people are still regullarly playing CMBO after 2.5 years

Steve

[Redmow]

True...I am playing an operation right now (I will not name which) that I could have just scooted all my units forward. And the enemy would have just as obligingly destroyed them. Imagine my surprise when a KV-1 appears in the midst of my lines and all I have around is a couple of PzIIIL's. I said, I'm screwed! But, using tactical forethought and LOS (just like ASL) I was able to run a tank hunting team up and immobilize that big bad boy. The tank hunter team died but I would have lost a whole heck of alot more if they didn't make it at all. There's one of those choices. I could have tried for a rear shot with my PzIIIL's but the enemy had a pretty strong anti-tank front established limiting my tank movements until I could flush them out. I have learned not to just rush forward...I may still win but I will take alot more casualties.

I play ASL also and one thing I had to relearn was playing against an unknown force. In ASL, the boards are all the same and you know what the enemy has available. Thus your tactics are basically formed at the beginning. Here, the terrain dictates your tactics at the beginning as well as YOUR force composition. The rest is organized chaos. This game ROCKS in my estimation especially pbem or TCP/IP.

[Barrold]

Hi Gerry. Welcome to the forum.

As Steve has already mentioned, the number of fascinating features included in this product make it the "Promised Land" of tactical WWII games.

The reviews and the awards these guys have garnered are well deserved.

I have to chuckle at the comment about not having enough control as certain malcontents have complained about the micromanagement in CMBB as opposed to CMBO.

Within the constraints necessarily imposed by the limitations of the current game engine, the player must be intimately involved in deciding the outcome of the battle.

While the demo is limited, even those two scenarios contain elements of the explorations in tactics provided in the full game. "Yelnia Stare" can certainly provide insights into handling conscript troops (herding cats), desperate defenses, coping with insufficient anti-tank resources, and the role leadership plays in maintaining the integrity of units.

If the demo appeals in small ways, the full game will deliver in many large ways. For someone interested in the era and genre, CMBB is guaranteed to be the single best purchase possible.

BDH

[mike the wino2]

Welcome to CMBB.

It's important to remember a few things: divorce the wife (or break up with GF), buy the best computer you can and quit your job.

Now you are ready to fully appreciate the joys of CMBB, as all of life's little annoyances have been eradicated.

And, in a couple of months, when you think you are the master of the CMBB universe try a PBEM....in the fog...at night. That'll show ya what yer missing.

Cheers

[Cpt. Cook]

Hey, Krazy Canuck. I like your signature, it is quite relevant. Where is it from?

[Mortar Man]

From a point of view of someone who has no background of WW2 or tabletop/hex games - I played the two demo scenarios but wasnt overly impressed with them. The tank one was boring (and still is) - move your tanks up and hope you kill the guns before they kill you. The other scenario was more fun, but I still wasnt convinced. I wasnt fond of the control system because men did not respond to new threats and, yes, it all seemed a bit automatic. However because everyone said what a great game it was I went ahead and bought it anyway.

I'm glad I did After playing a bit and learning the game you really come to understand how to control your men with this unique turns system. You learn about the strengths and weaknesses of both sides and of each individual unit, and get a lesson in history's greatest war while you're doing it.

Scenarios vs the AI are ok - some are excellent and some are dull. Most would consider the AI opponent ok. For me personally I think the game really shines with multiplayer. It is really cool to watch the enemy's tanks fall to your ambush, thwart an attack off that looked totally overwhelming or pull of the luckiest shot ever that changes the course of the game The multiplayer community is very friendly and I havent met anyone who has spit the dummy or been rude to me when they lost.

[ March 07, 2003, 05:15 AM: Message edited by: Mortar Man ]

[Krazy Canuck]

Originally posted by Cpt. Cook:

Hey, Krazy Canuck. I like your signature, it is quite relevant. Where is it from?

Aghh hell, now I've gotta fess up.

I found it while browseing Mike Dorosh's site, and *with his consent* I've started useing it. I've no idea where he found it, but if you ask him I'm sure he'll enlighten us.

It sure struck home for me!!!

KC

[synchro]

being even vaguely interested in WW2 is a bonus with the CM games. and i thought the demos were great. as the german CO in yelnia stare it was a challenge taking out those T-34s with those puny 'doorknockers' - and only 2 of them at that! - and holding off the infantry so that your tank hunting teams can finish off any tanks the doorknockers could not, keeping the tanks buttoned up, so their job is easier, was not easy. there were numerous ways it could be done and that was fun in itself. the kursk demo was also good tho the lack of any other kind of unit made it very difficult. no arty support, no inf support... just armour.

like the charge of the light brigade with tanks. but using hulldown and shoot'n'scoot tactics you do more than just 'charge'.

i still play CMBO more than CMBB but CMBB has the better tactical options... oh, and better graphics, obviously... and just a whole lot more for your money.i think i just prefer that whole western allies thing.

thanks

das

[Poor Old Spike]

Originally posted by barrold713:

(Snip)

I have to chuckle at the comment about not having enough control as certain malcontents have complained about the micromanagement in CMBB as opposed to CMBO.

BDH

The answer of course is to know when and when not to "interfere" with your boys AI and just give them basic orders and let them get on with the job.For example I'm currently concluding a huge city-fight pbem and on turn one I simply put my dozens of attacking Russian infantry and tanks on one big "Move" order path from the start line straight through to the far side of the city,only stepping in to issue a few orders now and again when necessary to keep the juggernaut going forward on "automatic pilot",and they now have 4 big victory flags and are within spitting distance of the 5th :cool:

[MikeyD]

If you've just seen the demo you've got to use your imagination for the rest of the game.

Visualize brutal city fighting. A Russian KV-1 heavy tank (flamethrower variant) appears one city block over coming your way. You elect to split your last remaining infantry squad with anti-tank capability into two teams, hoping one team will get the last sachel charge and the other will retain the squad mg to supply supressive fire. But as you tell your team to sprint across the street into the next building you think- is that KV alone or being accompanied by unseen protective infantry? A CM game can be a real nail-biter sometimes.