Panzer76 Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 Hi. So Ive played some 1.03c version games, and I still see the good old arty bug ( you know, the one where your arty falls miles away from the target, even if u have LOS and adjusts fire) is alive and kicking, so, my question is, will it ever be fixed with this CM engine? [ April 22, 2003, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: Panzer76 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 Did somebody ever sent the savegames for such an occurance to Madmatt? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted April 21, 2003 Author Share Posted April 21, 2003 Originally posted by redwolf: Did somebody ever sent the savegames for such an occurance to Madmatt? I did atleast, twice. After that I havent bothered sending in anymore as Ive havent gotten any feedback if it helps or what not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 Just asking. Unfortunately I had similar experiences with the split-squad victory point bug back in CMBO times. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 The solution to that is as follows: Let's say your arty drops 100m too far west and 40m too far north of the point where you specified it. You then retarget the spotter 100m east and 40m south. The arty then magically appears bang on target. It's called readjustment, and it works flawlessly for me every time. Give it a go. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 Originally posted by Soddball: The solution to that is as follows: Let's say your arty drops 100m too far west and 40m too far north of the point where you specified it. You then retarget the spotter 100m east and 40m south. The arty then magically appears bang on target. It's called readjustment, and it works flawlessly for me every time. Give it a go. Soddball, that is a neat solution, but does bugger all if you can't get LOS to the adjusted target position. For example, if I target a trenchline, and my artillery lands 150m S and 30m E of my target, I can, as you say, retarget by plotting at a position 150m N and 30m W of the trenchline. However, if that new position is, say, hidden behind a hill, then I have not adjusted my fire, but have instead replotted it (with all the attendant delays involved) because you cannot adjust fire to a location out of LOS. I for one hope this limitation of the Artillery is addressed, as it makes artillery far too difficult and unreliable for usage. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 It's a fair point about losing LOS, MrSpkr, but without a bugfix for this problem, what's the alternative? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KursruK Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 Originally posted by Soddball: It's a fair point about losing LOS, MrSpkr, but without a bugfix for this problem, what's the alternative? Don't use arty. It's too unpredictable in CMBB to be worth it. That is, unless on defense with TRPs. [ April 21, 2003, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: tigger ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 Originally posted by tigger: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Soddball: It's a fair point about losing LOS, MrSpkr, but without a bugfix for this problem, what's the alternative? Don't use arty. It's too unpredictable in CMBB to be worth it. That is, unless on defense with TRPs. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted April 21, 2003 Share Posted April 21, 2003 Originally posted by Soddball: The solution to that is as follows: Let's say your arty drops 100m too far west and 40m too far north of the point where you specified it. You then retarget the spotter 100m east and 40m south. The arty then magically appears bang on target. It's called readjustment, and it works flawlessly for me every time. Give it a go. Sounds to me like shooting with my first (worn out) rifle in my military service. I had to target low left 7 to hit the 10... My experience is, I order an artillery target, the shells fall somewhere else - **** happens. So well, I repeat the inital target order - and the shells fall to same wrong place. But my correction order should go to the inital ordered target. Just like 'You stupid butthead - are you blind???'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted April 22, 2003 Author Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by Soddball: The solution to that is as follows: You then retarget the spotter 100m east and 40m south. The arty then magically appears bang on target. well, in my last game it landed different places everytime when I tried to readjust just a couple of meters, but always far away. And it's called a bug. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thermopylae Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Shouldn't your FO be doing the adjustments? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted April 22, 2003 Author Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by Thermopylae: Shouldn't your FO be doing the adjustments? Thats another point, and I think that will be adressed in the new engine, I seem to recall Steve metioning it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by Panzer76: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Thermopylae: Shouldn't your FO be doing the adjustments? Thats another point, and I think that will be adressed in the new engine, I seem to recall Steve metioning it. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted April 22, 2003 Author Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by Scipio: You mean we have to wait at least two years for this??? I think so. [ April 21, 2003, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Panzer76 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou2000 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 I recently had a similar problem with a mortar spotter (regular).... 3 or 4 times he targetted the enemy and each time he had a clear LOS and each time it was WAY off target. (no TRP's used) In the worse one he targetted a close position with excellent LOS over open ground ..... The rounds landed in a nice neat cluster to his right/rear .... Its a good job my HT had been killed or it would have been a friendly fire incident ! I still have the game turns on my HD or can get some screen shots if anybody is interested ? My opponent was no doubt loving the pyrotechnics display we were putting on to celebrate his victory !! I had my revenge ..... the spotter team mounted their own 2 man assult over open ground against 2 T-34's and Russian infantry ! They wont be making that mistake again ! I tired the adjusted fire method ... but was hit by the LOS problem and the fact that on one occasion I would need to target my own forces, without the assurance that it would be 'off target' :eek: And when it did let me tgt without LOS ... the time to arrive went from a seconds to about 4 mins ... just to hit an area that is actually in LOS and had already been targetted Strange that it doesnt happen in every game ... my next PBEM the rounds landed exactly where they were intended ! But if it happens once in a game then it seems to happen for the whole of that game. I could understand rounds missing their target and having to be adjusted or the spotter has to cancel the fire order and re-target the area ... thats actually something that should be in the game .... but EVERY time ! A fix would be good ... but I dont see it happening. (Edited to add: My prob was under 1.02 as I have the UK CDV version and cant try with the .03 patch) Maybe they'll manage a fix in time for CMAK. P.S. The mortar fire wouldnt have won me the game, but it would have helped me lose better [ April 22, 2003, 04:05 AM: Message edited by: Lou2000 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Alot of people have seen this and cried bug. No matter what I do, I have not been able to replicate it in a controlled setting. Leading me to thing one of several things is happening: A: User error. Getting slightly out of LOS when clicking target is very, very easy. B: LOS with target broken during countdown. This makes fire 'out of LOS' permenantly. The thing to remember is that if your fire is off, the only way to reset things is to CANCEL the fire mission. Then retarget. Rather than trying to adjust bad fire. WWB 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Rommel Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 I'll agree with wwb_99...No matter what I do I to cannot recreate this "bug" either..All my tries the artillery lands either 98% of the time right on target and the other 2% off by maybe a couple meters at most,but still not enough to do a readjustment..thats with 15 tries and having a good LOS to the target area. Im no expert in this feild but this is just how the game works for me.I have never had the problem occur. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebus_Badger Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 I threesome, err, I also second that obersvation: arty may not always be as effective for me as I want, but I've never had it land more than a few meters on average away from expected. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou2000 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 I've had a quick look at the saved files for the game ... ... here's what I found The screenshot has been posted as a link so it doesnt clog up the thread ... its 72k, I couldnt really get it much smaller and still show up the detail. Screenie Opens in new window. Unit involved: Regular German 81mm mortar spotter. The spotter (Rested and OK) originally targeted some scattered trees 127mtrs to his front. The trees were slightly downhill from the spotter and the tgt point did have a LOS, however it wasnt 'bright blue' but still a LOS. The tgt line 'broke' when the spotter got pinned (pinned and OK) by some incoming arty. Once this passed I retargetted the same area. By the end of the next turn the spotter is alerted and OK 43 secs to impact. Still with LOS and tgt line 127mtrs to the front. The rounds land off to his right between 145 and 235 mtrs away. Next orders turn I cancell the firing order (not just adjust it) and try to adjust by targetting an area to the spotters left. I kept it on open ground to ensure a good 'bright blue' LOS. Spotter status while targetting is 'Alerted and OK' 22 secs to impact ... Now I'm thinking its going to land where I want !! WRONG... As the turn starts the spotter status turns to Rested and OK and the rounds start to land nearly 275 mtrs away from the targetted area - near the burning HT from the tgt area. (The HT is 213mtrs from the spotter) Now I fully understand that the ranges involved are fairly short. I have seen much larger distances involved. But these are the only saved files I have that show this type of prob. In this case it may be caused by the changing status going from pinned back to rested and it may be the case that this so called 'bug' is due to the condition of the spotter in some way. But this happened all through the game ... earlier the spotter was targetting at longer ranges ... and the rounds landed even further off target. (I dont have the saved files for these) These times the spotter was Rested and OK and not suffering from being pinned, not tired or hiding etc and I'm convinced there wasnt a prob with having LOS .... I dont know if this is actually a 'bug' as such, but something is having an effect on the targetting ... I'd like to know what so I can try avoid it ... or work through it ! Interested in hearing thoughts ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Lou, you might be on to something. Could be that once broken by an external factor, the targeting always stays broken. That is a bit tricky to test for in a controlled environment, but there might be a way. WWB 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou2000 Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by wwb_99: Lou, you might be on to something. Could be that once broken by an external factor, the targeting always stays broken. That is a bit tricky to test for in a controlled environment, but there might be a way. WWB Well thats what I started thinking ... but as mentioned, earlier in the game his shots were just as bad .... and he had only ever been at Rested / OK. He wasnt tired and had a LOS - so that kinda didnt fit with that theory ... and without the files its hard to check. Thats why he went on a suicide mission assaulting the T-34's on his own So I still dont know :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Scattered trees make things difficult, as do some mortar modules (Sov 120mm springs to mind) The reason for this is that the spotter seems to need to be able to see the spotting round to get the barrage on target. Every time I've seen the wildly inaccurate barrage it's been when the LOS to the target is keyholed in such a way that the spotter cannot see the fall of shot. The Mortar business is that the Sov 120mm module doesn't seem to fire spotting rounds, and as a result is often a bit off. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted April 22, 2003 Author Share Posted April 22, 2003 Originally posted by wwb_99: Alot of people have seen this and cried bug. No matter what I do, I have not been able to replicate it in a controlled setting. Leading me to thing one of several things is happening: A: User error. Getting slightly out of LOS when clicking target is very, very easy. B: LOS with target broken during countdown. This makes fire 'out of LOS' permenantly. The thing to remember is that if your fire is off, the only way to reset things is to CANCEL the fire mission. Then retarget. Rather than trying to adjust bad fire. WWB WWB, just because you cant replicate the error doesnt mean that it's not there. It makes the possible error harder to fix, for sure, but doesnt mean it doesnt exist. In the start when ppl reported about this, "everybody" said it was a user error, but more and more ppl have reported this, and quite a lot of them know the CM game pretty well. I dont think its a user error or that the line was broken during the taregting, but that it's simply a bug or a freak occurance in the game engine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Rommel Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 Thats what I am begging to wonder..is it maybe just a freak occurance that happens.I'm not saying it isn't a bug just it has not happened to me during the game. This is just a stab in the dark but I have experienced this in other games i have.Could the flaw be a particular players computer.Being the AI and most calculations in the game are run by the computer processor..could the problem be in the way the processor or what have you works the calculations of the game.Hence it may calculate wrong hence the Artillery going off target. The bug is found but it turns out to be in the way the game and the computer systems calculates on certain processors etc..Which may explain why some have it happen and others like myself and WWB_99 etc..have not had it occur. [ April 22, 2003, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Erwin Rommel ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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