Best way to deal with the russians?

[Gryphon]

Hey everyone,

Despite that i've been playing CMBB for years and years now, i always run into something new when playing human opponents Therefore, i have a couple of questions for various time periods. First of all, i usually play ME games on the following terrain:

* village

* moderate trees

* small hills

* day

* summer

* 2000 pts

* variable rarity

* 26+ turns

* medium size map

What would the best tactics be for the germans to deal with russian heavies in 1941? A 2000 pt game can buy the russian mech. A LOT of KVs or T-34 which is not entirely historically correct for this period. However, there is little one can do to stop the enemy player from doing so.

Second there is 1943-1945. What i usually do is buy several TDs or StuGs and position them in open hull down positions able to overview parts of the battlefield from the start of the game. Thus, creating narrow long corridors of fire and denying the enemy armor movement. Even backed up with AT guns sometimes. I rarely go with the big cats or Pz IVs.

While this anti armor seems to do the trick my infantry always gets clobbered when fighting russian SMG troops for the flags. Also, the russian player always seem to have some sort of LOS to my infantry and pounds them to kingdom come with area fire.

So, what can i do to increase the lifespan of my infantry? I have the firepower to slug it out at 100m or so, but ammunition is a serious problem with Panzergrenadiers. In addition, at close ranges SMG troops kick the living daylights out of them. These days i sometimes pick a 150mm infantry gun for additional fire support which seems to help just a bit, but not much.

Finally, what would typical 2000pt forces be for all the years? Keeping historical mix in mind as i'm a correctness slut How should the German player commit his valuable and expensive infantry in all years?

So, in summary:

- How to defeat the russian heavies in 1941 succesfully?

- Is my anti armor tactic sound at all?

- What can i do to increase the lifespan of my infantry in general?

- What would typical 2000pt German forces (inf & mech) be for 41, 43, 44, 45 years?

- How should the German player commit his valuable and expensive infantry in all years?

Thanks a lot.

Regards,

Gryph

[The_Enigma]

To might want to start using some form of houserules which you state before buying your forces.

I.e. no KV tanks or put a limit on them etc

As for increasing the lifespan of your infantry, have you tried investing in FOO or support weapons like machine guns?

Thinning there ranks out via killing them or braking them at range is more perferable then letting them close on you.

If ammo is an issue you may wanna pick some good old regular infantry, they pack more ammo?

Or have a good look around the editor to see which squad types pack the most punch and ammo, i seem to remember cavaly packing a nice punch and carting some decent ammo but i may be wrong there.

[JasonC]

First, you really should branch out and play more types of games, not all MEs, not all the same scale, not all the same terrain mix, not all the same combined arms force types and that on both sides, etc.

Second, if you never touch a Pz III long or a Marder in 1942, and always take thick front StuGs instead, and never touch a Panzer IV long in 1943, ditto, then you are really in no position to object to your Russian opponents always taking KVs and T-34s in 1941. You simply deserve to lose to gamey armor cherry picking, because you are guilt of it yourself in other time periods. Long 75, thick front StuGs were a smaller portion of the German 1942 AFV fleet than KV-1s were of the Russian 1941 fleet.

Third, you are losing even with gamey StuGs because of how you are using them and the Russian correctly meeting an antitank strategy with an anti-infantry one. Exposing T-34s to overwatching and stationary StuGs is just stupid, and instead they should skulk and aim their abundant HE at your leading infantry. Then win the infantry fight afterward, knowing that a handful of StuGs at the back of the map will not have enough HE to turn the tide.

Fourth, always using variable rarity will make cherry picked armor worse. It makes the rarer vehicle and especially gun based counters to "ubertanks" unavailable in most games, at payable rarity factors. If you allow KVs in 1941 and Tigers in 1943, then rarity should be *off*. If you leave rarity variable, then both should be banned, because the rarity system is effectively banning their counters but not the ubertanks themselves.

Fifth, you appear to be under the impression that combined arms mech ME for both sides is some sort of balanced setting. It is not. Not meant to be, and isn't in practice. The portion of the overall point budget allowed to be used for armor varies dramatically, within the "combined arms" setting, with the parent unit type and to a lesser extent the era. German infantry combined arms will be able to afford only a couple of assault guns, where mech parent unit will be able to afford a platoon or more of medium tanks. On the Russian side, rifle parent unit with combined arms force type is a comparable level of armor support - not mech parent combined arms.

Russian mech parent combined arms allows nearly 40% armor points, vs. 25% for the German mech. Basically the Germans are expected to have a lot of points in "vehicle" screen light armor, while the Russians are not. To fight Russian mech combined arms, the Germans would use armor force type. If you want balanced amounts of armor on the two sides, use Russian infantry parent unit with combined arms force type, vs. German mech parent combined arms - or use armor force type for both to allow any amount of the points to be spent on armor, on either side.

All those are meta points about how you are playing, and it being far too restricted to be either realistic or balanced, or frankly, interesting. Now to more particular points.

First, Germans in 1941 dealt with the Russian heavy armor by using gun fronts (tactically) and by going around (operationally) and waiting for non-existent Russian combat service and support to let the things run out of gas or break down, or both. What they didn't try to do was take a tactically offensive force posture in the face of concentrated Russian heavies. Since the Russians usually penny-packeted the stuff, this wasn't much of a restriction, and the Germans could always break through somewhere else. Meanwhile they could defend on the tank-heavy sectors, and within a week the Russia tanks would be ineffective from cumulative losses and poor CSS.

Tactically, the answer was a gun front in a defensive posture that exploited the Russian's lack of coordinated combined arms in that era. They normal counter to gun-based AT defenses is to call in artillery on them - but Russian tank-artillery coordination, and even basic communications, were so abysmal in 1941 that this counter simply didn't exist. Secondarily, the Germans stripped the Russian tanks of such infantry as accompanied them - often remarkably little - and could then tackle tanks that pushed on anyway by cutting roads around them, by infantry close assault, by air attack, etc.

You will not see a human making those mistakes in an ME with flags well in front of the German start line. It'd be a Russian attack.

In the game, the Russian 1941 armor has three significant weaknesses. First, the lights are just awful, with their guns undermodeled and their armor readily holed by everything in the German arsenal. But human players simply won't take it, as a result. Second, the early model T-34s get very thin turrets and their "round" slope it quite weak, making them penetrable by numerous German weapons that had no hope against them in reality. More on exploiting that below. Third, the face very long command delays when buttoned, which they have to be to fire (2 man turrets). This makes it always a mistake to stand toe to toe with them, head on. Instead you want to shoot and scoot at them from multiple angles, breaking contact every other minute.

What goes into the gun fronts? Historically, 105mm howitzers were the single most common weapon used for it. This works in the game, too. Rarity tends to make them slightly more expensive, but still only about half the cost of a T-34, and they don't use up armor points. A 105mm howitzer will kill a T-34 using HC ammo with any hit, and will penetrate the turret with plain HE most of the time (occasional poor "round" rolls or high side angle).

To move them you need to use Sdkfz 9s, as they are transport class 8, meaning an SPW-251/1 is not sufficient. Trucks have very poor off road movement, don't try to use them (the more capable 9s cost the same anyway). You only need about half as many as you take 105mm howitzers e.g. take 4 guns and 2 prime movers.

Historically the Germans also use 88 Flak and 105mm Kanone, especially against KVs. In the game the latter is not represented, but the 88 is comparable. But they are quite expensive and rarity on makes them even more so. And they are immobile, making them impractical in MEs. Very small MEs you might fire from the start line, but at 2000 points it isn't worth the risk to buy a very expensive, vulnerable gun that might not be able to see anything all game.

There are also captured 76mm guns. These have enough penetration to kill the Russian mediums at range. Rarity is their only problem in your settings. Note that they can be moved by an SPW 251/1.

The 50mm ATGs are fairly high rariety in 1941 until late in the year. They were another historical counter to T-34s. In the game, they are marginal because they need a solid turret hit to kill even the early model T-34s, and they will be spotted as soon as they fire. The replies will often kill them first, especially if they aren't dug in or there is more than one T-34 in LOS. APCR was historically an equalizer here, but in the game it is a hit or miss matter whether you will get any, or hit with the handful you get.

A better if gamier counter is the 28mm sPzB, once it is available and rarity permitting. These can penetrate the earlier model T-34s through the turret front out to 400 meters or so. The behind armor effect is relatively low and often you will need 3-5 clean hits to kill a tank. But the biggie is these are so stealthy you can fire for minutes on end, beyond about 200 yards, without giving more than a sound contact in return. Just be sure to fire from good cover, pines or full woods, and don't position right at the treeline but instead a bit farther back.

You can also wreck heavier tanks with 37mm Flak fire, even without getting actual penetrations. They are just so accurate they hit repeatedly, and get track or gun hits that disable the target. But you will be spotted unless the firing range is more than 800 meters, which is rare on maps with the amount of cover and hilliness you are talking about. 20mm quads don't have enough hitting power for this (though they have much closer, 400m sound contact range).

150mm sIGs can kill T-34s with plain HE. Even near misses can KO them outright, or immobilize. 150mm HC will kill anything it hits. The downsides are very low rate of fire, low accuracy beyond about 600 meters due to low muzzle velocity, and instantly being spotted. They are marginally easier to move than 105mms (SPW-251/1 works e.g.), and wreck infantry if they live. But 105s are better overall, mostly because they get twice the rate of fire and are accurate to more like 800-1000 meters.

Forget about 37mm ATGs, 75mm infantry guns, 20mm flak, or the handcarried ATRs. All are only useful against the Russian lights and they aren't going to show you any.

Understand that gun based tank killing depends on the superior stealth of the guns to open only when the target picture looks great. Several 105s ready to fire, 28mms in the right range window (greater than 200 and under 500), targets buttoned by machinegun fire beforehand, distracted by your vehicles or infantry, etc.

German infantry has superior AT abilities compared to Russian infantry, as every squad gets at least a grenade bundle. The German pioneers are decidedly better at it, though, and in a fight of your size a single platoon of them can make sense. That gets you 6 small "squads" each with 2 DCs, and 3 FTs. Add a similar number of cheap tank hunters, some of which will get the thrown AT grenades (the best of the bunch, 40 plus meter range and full kill on hits). All of these obviously lack the range to hit most tanks, but having a dozen units each able to kill any tank that gets close will at least force the Russians to stand off, prevent them from holding flags with tanks only, etc. Use company HQs to spread these units around, leaving only a third or so with the original HQ.

These will also provide a counter to Russian pure SMGs at point blank ranges, such as the initial LOS inside factories or in deep woods. But remember that SMGs outrange these engineer weapons. SMGs work well at about 80m, which these need 30m range. You want to avoid fights between those two ranges.

Your panzer rifle squads, meanwhile, should use covered arcs about 150m long. This will allow them to open up beyond the range where PPsHs are strongest, but will keep most of their ammo for effective fire ranges. With 32 shots per squad you cannot afford to fire into cover at 250-400 meters. Leave that range window to your HMG teams, the MGs on your tanks and light armor, FOs and guns.

It helps to have a few special counters to concentrated SMG heavy infantry, for when there is too much of it in good order already established inside good cover. The simplest version of that is a 105mm FO dropping a minute and a half of fire on a body of woods. If they are in buildings instead, a pair of 105mm howitzers targeting each building with "area fire" for 2-3 minutes (one minute per building per gun) will level the area and break any infantry inside. A 150mm sIG also works.

My favorite version of this, though, is the little Pz II flamm. It costs only about 50 points (60 with a little rarity sometimes). Take one or two of them, and hold them back until the need is urgent. They get decent MG ammo depth to fire at longer ranges, but really get to work by wading in to point blank range and burning out Russian infantry. In 1941, Russian infantry has no effective infantry AT weapons. It takes an unsuppressed infantry unit half a minute inside 35 meters to even try a "close assault", and the chance of that while a Pz II is firing flame at the attempting unit is nil.

The HE versions, you want to follow up with an infantry advance of your own while the defending infantry is still broken. This will finish them off or scatter the ragged out survivors beyond hope of rally.

Last we come to the armor to take in 1941. You can hurt a T-34 with a Czech 37mm through the turret front, out to 600 meters. This isn't realistic incidentally, but the game is quite generous in the penetration it awards to small calibers with high velocities, and quite ungenerous to the "round" on the T-34 turret front. Czech tanks are available in large platoons with 50mm front armor (proof against 45mm or infantry guns) and quite low cost. Note that the Czech 37s are much stronger than the towed German ones in this respect.

Better, though, is the 50L42 on the German Panzer IIIH. This will kill T-34s through the turret front out as far as 1200 meters (yes really) for the earliest 45mm turret models, and 600 meters or so even for the earliest 1942 models. You do not need to close to point blank on the sides, as the historical tankers did. The downside is the 50L42 is not effective against KVs (expect "hail fire" track and gun hits), and Russian 76s will penetrate the IIIH in return. In any head to head, the T-34 is favored.

As for the more general issue of fighting good Russian infantry with German infantry, the role of German infantry is first to scout, and second to follow up HE killing to finish off already broken forces. You do not want to wade in to equal numbers of good order Russians. That is mindless mashing of like on like and poor combined arms, and the Germans cannot afford it.

Instead, use efficient weapons to break Russian infantry first. That can be as simple as live tanks hosing them with MGs from inside 100 meters, or as elaborate as pairs of 105mm howitzers leveling a village. Learn to use the special weapons on the German gun screen and vehicle screen - 150mm sIG, 20mm quad Flak, 75mm infantry guns in quantity, SPW-251/2s taking out Russian guns endlessly from full defilade, and not least reactive medium FOs (105mm e.g.). Cheap strafing air support (e.g. Me-109Fs for 60 points) are also useful against Russian guns on ridgelines or behind walls etc.

As for the armor war in later years, what you are doing wrong is letting the Russians know exactly where you are, too early. Overwatching with thick front StuGs will control a lot of open parts of the field, yes. But the Russians just won't try to go there. As you have seen, they can instead just "skulk" behind cover and work to get keyholed LOS to your leading infantry (they just "aim" for the flags, knowing you will eventually show up there) - without giving LOS to the hilltops on your side of the map.

To counter skulking armor you need to be able to advance your own, or you need stealth and surprise to catch tanks where you were not expected, or both. Advancing armor means you will want turrets. And surprise means you will want to either use guns, or to keep hunting AFVs low behind ridges and such while your infantry "eyes" find their targets. Without advertising where all your AT firepower is soon after set up, by always being on the predictable hills.

Occasionally take a Tiger I and advance it enough to catch skulking armor. Occasionally take a platoon with turrets and keep them together in a tight body, in low ground rather than high, overwhelming each separate vehicle found before it can get off more than a single reply shot.

On the specific issue of a sample force for 1941, you might have -

2 motorized panzer rifle companies

1 pioneer platoon plus 3 tank hunters

4 105mm howitzers

2 Sdkfz 9 prime movers

1 platoon of Panzer III H (4 tanks)

1 Pz II flamm

1 105mm FO (radio if low rarity)

Me-109F air support

The howitzers get used in pairs, the panzer IIIs all stay together in a tight "fist", the pioneers and tank hunters are split into 3 groups with the company HQs and pioneer platoon HQ, each with 2 DC squads, 1 FT, and 1 TH, supporting a couple of panzer rifle platoons. Each infantry group gets a 50mm mortar "battery" to deal with guns. One is supported by the FO (overwatch mission initially), another by the tanks (maneuver, attack). The third can initially be a reserve, leave the Pz II flamm with it.

If any scouting group meets T-34s, they try to pull them onto a 105mm pair. The Panzers can take on single T-34s but avoid dueling with a whole platoon of them at once, and instead pull them back past 105mms or pioneer groups. Don't try to take all the flags at first, instead pick one flag area and plan to set 105s to destroy anything and everything that moves onto one flag group, then take it from the shattered remainder.

It is one example force...

[VonWebb]

wow

[Fizou]

JasonC,

You should write a book. I would buy it.

[Kineas]

Me too. These posts should be collected and saved from a future forum crash.

[Other Means]

The best way to deal with the Ruskies is in a bowl, with a little milk and banana.

[JasonC]

Why the heck do I even bother?

[costard]

JasonC - I notice you don't include mortars heavier than 50mm in the mix. Doesn't this mean that you have to get your troop up to 800m (say 600m for good accuracy) from the AT guns before you can deal with them? Or do you find the accuracy and ammo loadout of the 81mm too low to be worth the sacrifice of other units in the initial purchase?

[JasonC]

Oh I like 81s just fine. I like the SPW 251/2 even more. But there are point limits in these things, and this is a ME not an attack, and the main 1941 threat is clearly the T-34s. So I took a full battery of 105s in that one. The force gets 6 50s, 5 passes of Me-109F strafing, and 4 on board guns - to help vs. enemy guns, on top of the 4 Panzers. Later in the war I wouldn't bother with pairs of dinkie 50s, but 1941 Germans don't have a choice...

[costard]

JasonC - thanks for the reply.

Knew I had to be missing something - ME instead of attack makes the difference.

Managing the movement of the four 105s seems a little tough in 26+ turns - I guess the payoff is about 180 rounds of105mm HE to throw. As a matter of interest, how would you go about "pulling" the T34s onto the guns? Offer some tempting bait (Flammenpanzer) in the covered area?

[JasonC]

The main article covers that.

The guns deploy in pairs, with one element of each on the move at set up, the other overwatching from the set up line.

As soon as the first in each pair is positioned, its prime mover fetches the other one. Each gun is only going to move once, all game, so position them right when they do move.

The target area is one set of flags, not a mobile enemy. Get LOS onto a set of flags and the ground right around them, counting on enemy to show up there.

The Pz II Flamm is too valuable to be used as mere bait. Keep it well back until you have infantry for it to kill.

Ordinary infantry scout ahead. Both pioneer groups (short) and 105s (medium range) are ambush groups to draw enemy past. Skulking infantry are the primary draw.

The panzers hunt in a pack, willing to take on single T-34s. A platoon, on the other hand, and they reverse and draw them onto the 105s.

[Shmavis]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Why the heck do I even bother?

*shrug* Because you just can't help yourself? Gryphon may not have responded, but your post obviously was considered valuable by others. So, it wasn't a waste. Fizou is not the first to suggest that you write a book. Make some money for the prodigious time you spend here.

[JasonC]

I was referring to Other Means' flippancy, and the non-response from the original poster. Glad at least somebody got something out of it...

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[Other Means]

Originally posted by JasonC:

I was referring to Other Means' flippancy, and the non-response from the original poster. Glad at least somebody got something out of it...

Why do you think it was directed at you. It's not your thread just because you've posted in it.

[costard]

Adam1 - would it be something along the same lines as taking smaller ball for the rifles? More units of ordnance, longer time on the battlefield with fire ascendancy? or summfink. Large packages do deliver more kill and in a larger radius, the advantage gained being exponential in effect. Against an exponential effect in the reduction of number of rounds carried by a unit for a given kill in an out of supply cirucmstance (battle).

A square to a cube?

Probably comes back to communication theory and the art of maintaining supply into a battlefield.

[Kineas]

Originally posted by Other Means:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JasonC:

I was referring to Other Means' flippancy, and the non-response from the original poster. Glad at least somebody got something out of it...

Why do you think it was directed at you. It's not your thread just because you've posted in it. </font>

[JasonC]

Adam - I don't recognize the statement as accurate about CMBB. Autocannon blast is fine, particularly the serious AA weapons with 16 rated blast.

37mm AA vs. a typical small wood building (or hut, but I'm talking about the normal sized ones) will level the place in a minute flat. An infantry squad inside typically panics within 30 seconds, and breaks with a man or two down by the time the building collapses.

20mm quad will do the same thing.

Neither is killing everyone present, but that simply is not required to be effective. The target is suppressed instantly and neutralized by morale failure in the first minute of the firing order.

You can confidentally switch to a new target every minute to spread the pain around and deal with as many targets as possible. Will some of the former targets eventually rally? Sure, given enough time. Just come back to them if they pop up to fire again.

A single 20mm Flak is significantly weaker. But will establish a pin in a minute of fire, sometimes panic and frequently panic or broken in a second or third minute if fire is continued. It will only hit one man typically, but the target will be suppressed as long as it is actually engaged, and for a minute or two afterward will be rallying.

The single shot 37s, lower ROF, on e.g. the SPW 251/10 is not as good as AA, due to the low ROF. It simply isn't an autocannon. But if fired for 2-3 minutes it will establish the comparable pin effect of the single 20, with the targeted squad a man down and pinned to panicked.

After 2-3 minutes, all you are doing is maintaining the pin. That is a waste of firepower. Switch to a new target and pin it, instead.

A Panzer II will do the same as a single 20 AA, but with limited ammo wind. It also brings an MG though, which will readily maintain the pin, especially at closer range. The right way to use a Pz II is to close to well under 100m and fire the coaxial. You can use the main gun for a single minute if the target is important.

Czech tanks combined the low ROF of an SPW 37 with a small, 2-3 minute HE ammo load. They aren't going to do more than pin one target before running dry. They are meant to use their MGs for infantry, with the 37mm strictly anti-material, or first minute only.

[Renaud]

This thread and specifically JasonC's post inspired me to play out the game as described. Unfortunately I could only play vs. AI, but at least got to test out this force combination:

2 motorized panzer rifle companies

1 pioneer platoon plus 3 tank hunters

4 105mm howitzers

2 Sdkfz 9 prime movers

1 platoon of Panzer III H (4 tanks)

1 Pz II flamm

1 105mm FO (radio if low rarity)

Me-109F air support

I split them up into 3 task forces as described. Both sides 'regular', map set up as described. Due to rarity I had to replace 2 105mm how with a 28mm squeezebore AT gun and an extra carrier, and 1 of the panzer rifle CO's with a MC recce Co. I gave the red force +50 percent so I couldn't run around with impunity. The flammpanzer was amazingly effective...lit up 6 buildings and some woods in the center of town causing 71 casualties and basically saving the day. The 105mm observer caused 75 casualties. The single 105 gun which survived the red artillery levelled a number of buildings. The distribution of pioneer and AT teams was perfect and let me deal with the horde of red armor quite nicely (1 AT team KO'd 2 T34's!). The best part was the IIIH platoon which worked along the flank, finally sweeping in behind the red force as it was locked in house-to-house fighting. Only lost 3 crewmen (1 tank abandoned, 1 KO'd), but KO'd 18 red armor and 100 infantry. Red force lost 600 of 980 men, all 22 vehicles (only 4 were t34 76L models), blue lost 48 total casualties and 2 vehicles (1 recoverable). Russians had 1 mot inf. and 1 pioneer battalions.

In hindsight I believe the 105's are very nice, but other guns may be a better purchase depending on the month in 1941. In late 41 the 75L36 and 50L60 AT begin appearing and are about 50% cheaper than 105. The 150IG has a special place in my heart and with a vet crew has an acceptable ROF. The ME109 did't really do much, but it would be much more effective vs. a human player who might take soft transport for speed purposes, load tank riders, and place guns in static positions at the start line. I had forgotten how effective the 105 module is compared to the 81mm...much more hitting power.

Note on flammpanzer usage: I rushed this little guy into the village where it hid for 20 turns until red infantry finally broke through my artillery and HMG gauntlet. Initially I tried to over-control the vehicle, then discovered that the tacAI was very smart about using the short-range flamer and backing out as needed. I merely did short quick moves along a path behind my front line infantry teams and tacAI took care of the rest. The thing will actualy flame about once per 2 seconds if pressed...pretty frightening. Onslaughts by entire platoons were burned out, making that building impassible in future. Without the flammpanzer, I would have been overwhelmed for sure.

[ February 17, 2008, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: Renaud ]

[Other Means]

Originally posted by Kineas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Other Means:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JasonC:

I was referring to Other Means' flippancy, and the non-response from the original poster. Glad at least somebody got something out of it...

Why do you think it was directed at you. It's not your thread just because you've posted in it. </font>

[JasonC]

Oh, drop dead Other Means. You were being a flippant ass and you got called on it. So what? Deal.

[Other Means]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Oh, drop dead Other Means. You were being a flippant ass and you got called on it. So what? Deal.

*sigh* and after I said I wouldn't answer. Big man Jason, being your normal pompous self. Is everyone supposed to treat your every utterance with the reverence you seem to feel it deserves?

Not to say I don't enjoy some of it, but the baggage of your personality simply shines through.

Hope this helps.

[JasonC]

Renaud - thanks for the report. One item that did surprise me is the comment about the Me-109 not accomplishing much. There is always plenty of variation with air power, it is true, but a force with plenty of early war Russian light tanks is exactly the sort this is normally good against.

The 15mm HMG portion of the strafing, combined with top aspect hits, is usually sufficient to KO BTs and T-26s. Sometimes the behind armor effect isn't great, but you can still typically KO 2-3 before it runs out of passes.

The other items highly vulnerable to them are guns being towed by light vehicles but out of ground level LOS, and mortars caught moving in the open...

[JasonC]

OM - you needn't treat my utterances as anything, you are free to go elsewhere. You are also free to post something substantive in response to the original question. Instead you troll, because you occasionally enjoy being an ass, I suppose. Oh, and your personality police, testing behavior is so bloody juvenile.

I for one don't appreciate it when 3 hours of work get that kind of response. Nor would you, if you ever gave the CM community that kind of effort.