Not enough ammo

[Guderian129]

How historically accurate is the ammo count for German infantry?

See, the problem I have is that I play a lot of hotseat games with my father. He's gotten halfway decent in the game and has given me a run for my money once or twice.

Anyway, I usually play a lot of built in scenarios and random battles here in there (the flag lay out on those stink and there are not enough of them! Anyway to remedy this BTW?) and I have one major problem. I run out of bullets. He usually still has plenty of units left and can keep attacking or my attacks on him can only go far because I lose a lot of ammo ( from the fight or suppression fire I use).

Is there any strategy to prevent this? Rifle and SMG units seem to run out real fast and a lot of the time I lose momentum or excellent defensive positions due to my units not having enough bullets to shoot. It seems to be a major problem with the Germans (The side I play) and was wondering if there were ways to counter-act this. Thanks!

- Guderian129

[arax3]

sWAP SIDES!! WHO WANTS TO PLAY THE D**** NAZIS ANYWAY!

[WOLFNUTTS]

well with out seeing how u play id say keep ur men under command an use a covered ark an dont fire more then 250 m away enless ur a mg an sneak around more are u charging in like the apache indians or what /??

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by WOLFNUTTS:

well with out seeing how u play id say keep ur men under command an use a covered ark an dont fire more then 250 m away enless ur a mg an sneak around more are u charging in like the apache indians or what /??

I can't believe you managed to type tha all without punctuation.

Translated; do not open fire against your opponent at long ranges (the mentioned 250), leave this to your dedicated MG crews. Remember also that close combat (firefights within 30m) increase ammo consumption dramatically.

Use your infantry only when you need to stop your opponent's troops at close distance. Otherwise, harass him with machine guns and field artillery.

[Guderian129]

The way I'd do an assault is as follows. I usually have a squad or MG unit spraying supressing fire into my assault point (usually a building) and then use the "ADVANCE" command to charge in. Then, the chaos begins. If it's a large building, I hold the corner and bring in rienforcements. If it's a small building, massive amounts of fire begins to erupt. An attack like this manages to take up between 1/3 - 1/2 of my ammunition for the assaulting units! Now, I can use those guys for another assault, but it's hard to take all objectives this way as well as dealing with counter attacks.

- Guderian129

[ckct]

It depends on the size of map and length of time that you are playing.

I generally play small to med size w/ 20 - 30+ time. The ammo count seems to be good for me.

If you are playing anything longer than that, I suggest to only fire when necessary.

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Guderian129:

How historically accurate is the ammo count for German infantry?

The standard issue German ammunition pouches could carry 30 cartridges, and riflemen had two of them (one on each side of the belt buckle, each divided into three, and then divided again internally). So normally a rifleman carried 60 cartridges, but he could fit another 30 or so into his tunic pockets if need be.

Rate of fire with a bolt action is normally stated to be 15 rpm.

A CM squad would thus empty standard allotment of rifle munition in approx 4 minutes.

Does it fit well with your experience in CM?

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Snorri]

i think cmak is *accurate* here. beside units thrown out of any supply-line possibilities(which allowed them to take extra ammo along), the germans(some don`t) love! formal issues.

(f.ex. normandy44,a:-we need ammo quick, americans are here in an hour..b:-where is the order?)

[Mad Russian]

In CM being low on ammo isn't what it should be. You never, "run out of bullets" as you put it, in CM.

You go to a low ammo status. You can continue to fight, for the most part with no change in capability, forever.

The only difference that I have found is that they will not target enemy units as easily, on their own, but you can still assign targets, and they will go on firing at them. Once they get to the Low Ammo status there is not an Out of Bullets status.

Panther Commander

[Big Jim]

Do they fire as often though? And it usually gets your men cut to pieces if you assault with them at low ammo... I learnt that one the hard way!

[Lucho]

If you do not want to give up your initial defense positions because of your ammo running low, exchange the defending units (a platoon?) with a reserve unit, best during a lull in the fighting. Try to keep the enemy down with MG or artillery fire and sneak the original defenders out of the combat area after the replacements have arrived in your defense line. It is almost impossible to do this, when the enemy is too near.

[guachi]

You can be gamey and, at longer ranges (~200m+) split squads up and use the LMG half for supressive fire. That way you only use up 1/2 ammo and get 80-90% of the squads fire power.

Then you can be even gamier and recombine the squad, then promptly split it up again. You can't split up a squad once it has taken a certain amount of casualties (1/3?).

I also use worthless squads (conscripts, already broken, etc) as fire support. A German squad with 2 men that still has its LMG is still potent at ranges of 250m+.

Also, like others have said, having enough other fire support (mortars, MGs, vehicles) is the only other way I have found to get around low ammo limits.

Jason

[Slappy]

I think the ammo load is pretty realistic, but some scenarios put you in situations that require unrealistic amounts of contact and ammo expendature. Most 50-90min scenarios don't have enough units to rotate depleted (ammo, morale, casualties) units to the rear and carry on the point attack/defense with fresh units as would be fairly common. Infantry platoons were not generally expected to be continuously engaged in a firefight for an hour. If you're playing long battles, try upping the points to allow more reserves on the attack and more lines on the defense.

[Guderian129]

'Does it fit well with your experience in CM?"

Four minutes seems to be pretty much on target there, actually.

- Arkans

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Big Jim:

Do they fire as often though? And it usually gets your men cut to pieces if you assault with them at low ammo... I learnt that one the hard way!

:eek:

That's crazy! Ok, just a reminder to all: squads that have "low" ammo, should never be used for any other task than acting as second line fire support, behind squads that still have ammunition. Close assaults are definitely out of the question!

[Sergei]

One thing would be to use suitable weapons for different tasks. If your enemy is holed in a heavy building, using small arms to supress him can eat up a lot of ammunition. Those ammunition points would be much better spent on infantry in the open.

As a German you can buy 75mm Infantry Guns. These are great for infantry support, as they're relatively cheap and high on HE. They're slow, but Kübelwagen can tow one. Just deploy it so that you don't get whacked by mortar fire right away.

[Panzer76]

The ammo load out per se is ok, the problem arises when there is an A/D situation. As a defender it would be reasonable to expect that you have stocked up ammo in your defensive posistions. Especially for heavy weapons and MG.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Panzer76:

The ammo load out per se is ok, the problem arises when there is an A/D situation. As a defender it would be reasonable to expect that you have stocked up ammo in your defensive posistions. Especially for heavy weapons and MG.

But since you're defending, you can afford to invest on low maneuver, but ammo heavy MG teams in the first place.

[guachi]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

That's crazy! Ok, just a reminder to all: squads that have "low" ammo, should never be used for any other task than acting as second line fire support, behind squads that still have ammunition. Close assaults are definitely out of the question!

In a scenario where both I and my opponent were running out of ammo, I assaulted with my 'low' ammo units because all they had left were grenades. Plus, at close range, 'low' ammo units actually fire their weapons.

Not that I recommend doing that unless you are desperate.

Jason

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by guachi:

In a scenario where both I and my opponent were running out of ammo, I assaulted with my 'low' ammo units because all they had left were grenades. Plus, at close range, 'low' ammo units actually fire their weapons.

Sure, it's possible if the defending enemy unit has low ammo, or has considerably poorer total firepower. Squads with "low" ammo do fire, but with halved firepower, and their volleys are more sporadic. Also, the unit will disengage and stop firing as soon as it is no longer in danger.

[tar]

A friend of mine who also had low ammo problems was overly found of always giving each of his units a target to fire at each turn. If you give a unit a specific target, they will usually fire more at that target than if you let them pick by themselves. That will often mean that you run out of ammo at long range.

Unless it is a critical part of the battle, you are generally better off leaving the TacAI to do the infantry battle targetting. This will also preserve your ammo.

BTW, JasonC has written extensively on the issue of ammo use and long range fighting in other threads.

[Joachim]

Ah! City fights at extremely short ranges. The ammo consumption rises the closer you are to the enemy. You can waste lots of ammo firing on pinned units in cover.

The trick is to overrun (advance, assault) the enemy thus forcing him out of cover. Moving units are easier to shoot. The good thing about that trick: it conserves ammo. The bad things: Make sure other units don't throw grenades at the unit you want to overrun. Make sure it stays pinned cause your units are moving. Make sure there are not many unsuppressed enemies nearby.

Next trick is to force the enemy out of cover. Do not attack on a broad front. Try to render some of his troops in positions that are useless vs your attack and position some blocking force so these are just cut off - they have to move thru open or across streets to get at you.

And anything mentioned above... covered arcs are especially useful for ambushing.

Gruß

Joachim

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by tar:

A friend of mine who also had low ammo problems was overly found of always giving each of his units a target to fire at each turn. If you give a unit a specific target, they will usually fire more at that target than if you let them pick by themselves. That will often mean that you run out of ammo at long range.

Another good point. Allowing the squads to pick their own targets with fire arcs generally leads to better ammo discipline.