PanzerMiller Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Hey everybody, I am initiating an assault on a village with a batallion of SS infantry supported by a company of StuG IIIEs in October 1941. My divisional FO can already see three tanks clustered together, guarding the crossroads of interest...most likely T-34s. The rest of the batallion is in cover and is beginning the advance. A platoon of tank destroyers (PzJag I?) is coming up behind, to be followed by elements of 10th Panzer (Pz III?). So...what would you do...use the 105mm artillery against the armor to try to get a lucky kill or two, or hope your own armor assets can do the job against a superior enemy? It's muddy, with alot of steppe and long fields of fire separating the two forces. I've read previous threads of the effectiveness of artillery on armor, but would be interested in getting your advice on this particular situation and basic force composition. Thanks! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuirassier Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Artillery is usually wasted against armor, since a lucky shot is needed. The vehicles can just drive away once the rounds start falling too. Save the 105's until you identify an enemy platoon strongpoint, and then hose that. Thats the most reliable way to get your worth out of those guns. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patboy Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Cuirassier is right, but you can try some 105 mm rounds against supposed T34 tanks in the crossroad. If you are lucky, one "?" T34 could be knowked out or has his gun damaged, anyway T34's will hide from you. keep the most rounds of your artillery for anti tank positions and or smoke for armor(don't forget terrain is muddy) and infantry "blitz advance". Pat 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 105s on map used direct are fine against T-34s. 105 FOs on the other hand, won't get it done. 150mm and up stuff can expect reasonable chances of gun damage or immobilization against tanks if the flight of shells is well targeted. Best if you catch them unbuttoned though, as fragging one of the TCs is your best chance of damage. Don't need a full module, half a minute is fine for it. Speaking of 105s on map, I have been experimenting with them more and more and they have grown on me. Similar to sIGs, but less gamey. Decent hit chances and can KO plenty of stuff with the plain HE. HC very effective if you have it. ROF a lot better than the sIG. Also useful smoke. I like taking 2 plus one flak in smallish QBs. Prime mover is a single Sdkfz - they are very slow to push though. Cost of a platoon, a lot more firepower when the circumstances allow. Best at buildings e.g. village fights. In a bigger fight I'd consider a whole battery of them, with 2 Sdkfz. Tend to run out of support points though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 I seem to recall their hit chance is overmodelled. They should not really have much of an ability to deliver a HC charge in DF at distances >500m, according to German experience. I believe (from memory) that they do a lot better than that in CM, so I would not agree that they are not a gamey choice. That's before even getting into German doctrinal use of such guns. All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerMiller Posted November 2, 2006 Author Share Posted November 2, 2006 Thanks...appreciate the advice. I'll rely on the armor assets coming along later to take care of the T-34s. And hope they don't get stuck in the mud! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Do you have a sniper? That can make all the difference in these circumstances. A T34 loses (IMHO ) 1/2 of it's effectiveness if the Tank Commander (TC) is taken out. It loses about 1/5 if you make it button. By making it button it won't get 1st fire against enemy tanks and it needs ~2 rounds more to get a good hit percentage. If you don't have one, by all means force them to button by any mean necessary, including your arty. They key to winning as the axis player is to win the armour war, as the soviets have very little infantry AT capability. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Andreas - actually, using divisional 105mm in gun fronts was standard German practice in the early war. Rommel did it at Arras - far more of them than of 88s - and it was the standard counter to T-34s and KVs in Russia in 1941-2. Of course 105mm kannon or 88 flak were preferable, but there weren't nearly enough of those to go around. Whereas every ID had 105s. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerMiller Posted November 3, 2006 Author Share Posted November 3, 2006 Other Means -- no, I don't have a sniper. but I do have ample HMG overwatch that I plan to use as necessary to keep the armor buttoned. I think I'll use the artillery I have against infantry strongpoints I encounter in the assault. An unrelated question while I'm here: I don't have alot of experience with driving tanks through muddy conditions. How frequently can I expect them to bog? Can I cut this risk through specific kinds of movement over open ground? Are these questions already answered in archived forum topics? If so, my apologies for the duplicate post... Thanks for the advice! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuirassier Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 "I don't have alot of experience with driving tanks through muddy conditions. How frequently can I expect them to bog? Can I cut this risk through specific kinds of movement over open ground? Are these questions already answered in archived forum topics?" In, CM, vehicles bog a lot, especially narrow tracked german ones. The mud obviously just makes it worse. Try to stick with move only (hunt and fast move cause lots of bogging), and avoid driving in scattered trees, brush, etc if possible. If you do a search, I'm sure you will find a wealth of info (and complaining) regarding bogging. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Originally posted by JasonC: Andreas - actually, using divisional 105mm in gun fronts was standard German practice in the early war. Rommel did it at Arras - far more of them than of 88s - and it was the standard counter to T-34s and KVs in Russia in 1941-2. Of course 105mm kannon or 88 flak were preferable, but there weren't nearly enough of those to go around. Whereas every ID had 105s. I know. It was also seen as a complete waste of a good gun and the most important combat power asset of the division, and an expedient in case of extreme need, only to be used if nothing else answered. Which makes it different from the Soviet doctrine, which even had a gun designed with the dual role in mind. In the German case they needed to do this because they f*cked up on the ATG design in early war, only remedied by the appearance of the Pak 40 in February 1942, and so they did it, because losing guns was preferable to losing the battle. So I stand by what I said - if recommended without further restriction on time of the war it is a gamey (in the sense of not backed by doctrine) use of the gun, with the exception of a small time-frame in 1941-2, where it is a gamey use of the gun that occured in history as well. The point about them being overmodeled in CM still stands. It was toned down in testing, AFAICR, but it is still better than what German documents say. All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patboy Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 German vehicles bog a lot in CM even the ground was dry !!! I played yersterday a short operation during Koursk battle and I was very surprised to see my armor bogged in the dry battlefield, in those conditions it's very difficult to encircle some enemy positions. Then I don't talk to you if you attack in the muddy condition against fortified enemy positions. Pat 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konstantine Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Andreas: the quote should read "...for all love". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Hi konstantine - he actually says that in a few of the books, and I do believe that in 'The Ionian Mission', this is how he phrases it. It is of course related to a nautical observation made by him, then corrected by Aubrey. All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmavis Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Andreas, I posted some comments on "Inherit the Black Earth" at the Proving Grounds. Your lack of response wounds me. *sob* 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Woops - sorry about that. They went to the wrong email address (which is the right email address, but not anymore). I'll head over there pronto! All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 What's your time lag on calling in the artillery? Early war after moving your spotter around, the time between calling in a strike and the first shells falling can be pretty big. If you can guess where the tanks might be 15 minutes into the game (obvious route of advance) you might be able to drop artilery on the location just as things start heating up. With luck (there's that pesky luck again) the AI might independantly try to reposition the enemy tanks out from under the barrage and offer you a good side shot in the process. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 For regular German 105s the delay is typically 5 minutes. You call ahead of time on the general area and then do adjusts. Those adjusts generally bump the time to 2 minutes or so. So you need a little ability to anticipate enemy movements but not much. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scheer Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 Well, I beg to differ ... I have used 105 mm FO´s with good effect against bunched up tanks in CMAK and CMBB. That is, if you acknowledge that the effect is not a kill of the tank, but immobilization, gun damage, TC kills, etc ... much easier to deal with those crippled tanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf66 Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 Originally posted by Scheer: Well, I beg to differ ... I have used 105 mm FO´s with good effect against bunched up tanks in CMAK and CMBB. That is, if you acknowledge that the effect is not a kill of the tank, but immobilization, gun damage, TC kills, etc ... much easier to deal with those crippled tanks. Especially useful in Operations, causing total loss for the next battle....... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 Gun damaged tanks get abandoned, but immobilized are repaired. Killed TC's get replaced as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerMiller Posted November 6, 2006 Author Share Posted November 6, 2006 MikeyD / Jason: Actually, the time delay for my divisional level 105mm has been 2-3 minutes within LOS...much shorter than your estimate, Jason...must be the effect of a crack FO as part of an SS mechanized unit? I was presented with a pretty tight cluster of 5-6 T-34s in full LOS that I just couldn't pass up with the off-board arty. I've used about 1/3 of the available assets and, while no obvious kills or immobilizations to speak of, they certainly have scattered from their original placement. Still have reasonable assets left to use against newly-ID'ed infantry emplaced in the path of my advance... Still not sure how I'll deal with at least 7-8 T-34's with 6 StugIIIE's, 3 PzJag I's, and 4 PzIIIG's...patience, patience, patience... Thanks everybody! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuirassier Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 "Still not sure how I'll deal with at least 7-8 T-34's with 6 StugIIIE's, 3 PzJag I's, and 4 PzIIIG's" Easy. Retreat, resign, and buy a nice farm in East Prussia. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patboy Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 I just received this mail : http://www.fewgoodmen.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=807 Pat 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerMiller Posted November 7, 2006 Author Share Posted November 7, 2006 Excellent info, Pat...much appreciated! I've now got a company of infantry in LOS of two T-34s, one of which is using only MG fire, so perhaps the earlier 105mm barrage did some gun damage. We can only hope...thanks again! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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