Distance of FlaK from the frontline

[Sergei]

How were AA guns deployed near the front in reality? Players sometimes put their light flak right to the front to kill infantry and light vehicles, but I haven't seen such behaviour in battle accounts, and it would seem more logical to use those more in the back, to protect vital supply roads & depots. I would think front troops relied much more on AAMG's, but there aren't any infantry AAMG's in the game.

The same with Flak Panzers. Were they really brought to the front that often? With such weak armour, it would have been very wasteful.

[Joachim]

Sergei,

do a search function. Same topic was already covered (except for the FlaKPanzer).

Result was: 20mm FlaK was used in MLR by Germans for dual purpose - ground and air targets. There are battle accounts from Normandy et al.

On FlakPanzers I'd guess that they were used to protect columns. Once the battle starts, they tend to hang back a bit to stay out of harms way. The better the armor, the better the chance for them to move forward. Especially the Wirbelwind is a real infantry killer from beyond zook range.

IIRC planes attacked towards the own lines, thus coming in from the enemy rear (a) hitting the rear armor of tanks firing at the enemy is the best sign you are friendly (->if it flies it dies) c) If you get hit, you have a better chance to head towards safety behind your own lines).

Thus having FlaKPanzers or FlaK a bit to the rear would make sense.

Gruß

Joachim

[Sergei]

Okay, and how on the Russian side?

[eichenbaum]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Okay, and how on the Russian side?

From Odessa to Kertch the Russian Naval used various AA guns for everything that moved. Those guns often didn't had any wheels so you'll encounter them in the front when the Russians had to take a step back.

Nils

[MikeyD]

Those Lend-Lease quad .50 cal halftracks turned out to be real infantry killers. As the Allies won increasing dominance in the air the AA halftracks could be turned to ground support.

The Germans had the opposite problem. As they lost dominance in the air they were obliged to bring their AA asets up to protect their forward units. Instead of keeping their mobile AA battery loitering back at the bridgehead they'd have them up protecting the tanks from maurading Sturmovicks. And that close to the frront they were liable to find themselves caught-up in an encounter.

Most encounters involving AA assets in the game I consider to be units stumbling upon one another, or perhaps desperate measures using anything at hand to survive the battle.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Joachim:

Result was: 20mm FlaK was used in MLR by Germans for dual purpose - ground and air targets. There are battle accounts from Normandy et al.

How far back was the MLR from the FEBA though? I'm thinking roughly 500m to 1km.

I find it difficult to credit that they would have dual purpose weapons very close to the FEBA, since it would make it rather tricky for them to engage air targets without giving away their loc, and thus inviting an awful lot of artillery fire into their home.

Regards

JonS

[Paco QNS]

A bit of doctrine:

From the "Normas generales para empleo táctico de las armas de acompañamiento de infantería y caballería" Instrucción E. 8.

approved 24, June, 1940 (distributed 30, October, 1940) Spanish Army

(very german influenced since the Spanish Civil War)

(General guidelines for the tactical employ of supporting weapons,

Infantry and Cavalry):

""Anti-air machineguns 20 m/m

74. The general missions of these weapons in combat are two:

Main mission, defense against airplanes and as a secondary mission, antitank.

75. Their main missions are:

Defense of marching or stationary units.

Idem of materials.

Idem of depots.

Idem of AA batteries.

Idem of field artillery units.

And in general, of everything that, needing AA defense, don´t have any guns for it.

76. The little charge of shells and the fuzes used (ultra-quick or anti-armour) makes them poor suited for use against land targets.

Only exceptionally they can be used against nests or observatory points, exclusively using their excellent precision to hit their slits.

Mission Anti Air

...

Mission Anti Tank

79. Their effective range with armour piercing ammo is 500 meters, in correspondence with the range of their lighting trazes. Up to this range it can pierce a 20 m/m armour and their precision is such to hit with the 50% of shots a target sized 0,5 meters vertically and 0,25 m. horizontally.

The traze allows to correct fire easily and quickly.

80. Their main targets are light and semi-heavy tanks, whose high mobility requires to use automatic fire weapons with traze ammo.

81. Their main purpose are:

Attack the aforementioned tanks, when protecting the enemy infantry advance.

It must be remembered that this antitank mission is secundary. It can´t overrule their main purpose, and then generally, the weapons will be sited in the better anti air emplacement, and -in case from it they can acomplish the anti tank role-, as a secundary mission this latter. Of course, always in short and medium ranges.

Employment

...

Defensive

86. In general, they will be employed in the resistance position, so sited to defend first the main line of resistance, the support line and the stopping line, and, in case is possible, the Regiment reserves line. Their emplacements will form a rectangle in the majority of occasions.

87. In special cases, when the advance position is ordered to resist, a gun will be assigned to it, siting the other three in the resistance position, forming an equilateral triangle to protect effectively the main, resistance and stopping lines.""

Regards,

((edited to resite paragraphs and clear the text/translation ))

[ June 07, 2004, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Paco QNS ]

[MikeyD]

I do recall seeing Italian theater film footage of a foliage-concealed German quad 20 peering over the lip of a crest and firing down (one supposes) into a distant valley. The sequence was in connection with the Anzio landings but WWII combat footage on TV is notoriously 'generic'.

From what I can tell, Germans would've used flak guns in this way as a method of denying routes of advance to infantry at stand-off (outside of rifle/mg) range. The CM practice of charging into town with a Wirbelwind at the head of the collumn seems a bit far-fetched, unless they were caught unaware while on the march.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joachim:

Result was: 20mm FlaK was used in MLR by Germans for dual purpose - ground and air targets. There are battle accounts from Normandy et al.

How far back was the MLR from the FEBA though? I'm thinking roughly 500m to 1km.

I find it difficult to credit that they would have dual purpose weapons very close to the FEBA, since it would make it rather tricky for them to engage air targets without giving away their loc, and thus inviting an awful lot of artillery fire into their home.

Regards

JonS </font>

[jurpo]

Sergei,

look at this page (in Finnish) and the Suurmäki link for some details.

"Neuvostoliiton ilmavoimien toiminnan vähetessä myös rintamilla käytettiin ilmatorjunta-aseita päätehtävänsä ohella tulitukitehtäviin jalkaväen tueksi. Kohteina olivat yleensä vihollisen tykki- ja konekivääripesäkkeet, joita tuhottiin rohkeasti suora-ammunnalla. "

[MikeyD]

We're mostly discussing mobile stuff used defensively. There could be some discussion about the use (or misuse) of towed AA (like German single 20mm mounts) during offensive operations. Towing a 20mm gun across an active battlefield and setting up under fire sounds like it would be just as difficult in real life as it is in CM!

[Sergei]

The quote about Finnish attack phase in 1941 provided by Jurpo translates as:

"As the Soviet air activity declined also in the frontlines, AA weapons were used alongside their main job to give support to infantry. The usual targets were enemy gun and machinegun positions, which were destroyed daringly by direct fire."

Interesting question there, Mike. I would suppose the same issues apply as to all towed DF guns used on attack. Not to be done where enemy can pour mortar and artillery fire back on you.

[JasonC]

The usual German duel use was as part of a heavy weapons assortment in groups either located with infantry strongpoints, or staggered between them in a second line.

The weapons used this way included light flak, PAK, infantry guns, mortars, and sometimes field artillery. The idea was to cover the ground between infantry strongpoints by direct fire, especially against infantry intrusions. Obstacle belts sometimes covered the areas targeted, as well.

This allowed the infantry to hold more concentrated positions, instead of being spread across the entire front in linear deployments. Infantry held its immediate area with small arms and reached out with MGs and sometimes mortars. Plus local counterattack "sallies". Both infantry positions and heavy weapons positions were dug in and often wired in as well.

The reach of the heavy weapons strongpoints was a kilometer or two in all directions, terrain permitting. The whole system also included artillery observors, directing the fire of 105mm and 150mm howitzers farther back. When heavy weapons were thin on the ground, sometimes 105mm howitzers would be incorporated into the second tier heavy weapons positions. More often, they'd go back at the regimental reserve line.

How far behind the front line did this means the light Flak was typically set up? Depends on how you measure the "front line", and on whether it was the typical deployment (heavy weapons group "checkerboard" behind the infantry positions) or co-located (heavy weapons inside the infantry strongpoints - used if the terrain made close in infantry defense necessary).

You might have obstacles or not, then 100m behind them the first observation posts, then 100m to 250m behind them the front line platoon positions. The company reserve positions and heavy weapons line could be 250m to 400m behind that. So roughly half a kilometer from the front, plus or minus 100m, in the typical deployment. But occasionally as far forward as 100m behind the first OPs.

As for mobile AA, it was much more valuable as a means of defending long vehicle columns from air attack. You'd find AA vehicles attached to battalion columns in platoon strength or higher. Some KGs had a full battalion of light Flak. They aren't looking for ground targets though, as much as the ground mounts did on defense. Because they worked with tanks that were better at that.

In the case of the Allies, the late war in the west was different from earlier periods. In the late war in the west, the Luftwaffe wasn't a serious factor. But the allies hadn't known that would be the case, and brought a ton of AA units. Many of them stayed in rear areas, particularly the large caliber high altitude AA.

But the "automatic weapons AA" were progressively pushed forward into direct fire roles. They were indeed used offensively, to provide suppressing fire from ranges out to 1 km in support of infantry attacks. Particularly against points with wide fields of view - hills and forts commonly had them - to allow the AAA to defend itself through its range advantage compared to MGs and small arms.

[Paco QNS]

MikeyD wrote:

We're mostly discussing mobile stuff used defensively. There could be some discussion about the use (or misuse) of towed AA (like German single 20mm mounts) during offensive operations. Towing a 20mm gun across an active battlefield and setting up under fire sounds like it would be just as difficult in real life as it is in CM!

Can´t find now my "La Luftwaffe", by Cajus Bekker -the spanish translation-.

But I remind clearly how he cites in the Poland campaign the use of 20 mm. AA guns (along with the 88 mm. guns). The first ones were used against machine-guns towers, and the later against bunkers. And yes, certainly, I remember quite clearly how he described what a b*tch was to move them!

// Off Topic -forgive me-, but while searching for this story I found this link on the Romanian Air-to-Ground forces, in both sides!:

Grupul 8 Asalt //