RoughRoad Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 I am playing an early war scenario and have dug in an axis 105mm artillery piece just behind a gradual rise-- in such a way that the gun can fire over the crest of the rise, but it's base is behind the crest (sort of like the artillery equivalent of hull down). On turn 3, my gun opens up, and within a turn or two its location soon becomes the focal point of a large Soviet armor attack-- a group of 8 or so KV's and T-34's started shelling it from 600m, and another group of 5 or so T-34's shelling it from around 200m. With the gun's location discovered and facing odds of 13-1 or so, i'm think that I'll be lucky if it can survive another turn. BUT... The Punchline: It's now 13 turns after the gun was first discovered, but in spite of the fact that this gun has been targetted by half the Russian Armor on the Eastern Front, it is virtually unscathed as it continues happily firing away from its "behind the crest" position (it just killed its ninth T-34). The Russian tanks have fired so many rounds at the gun that the area on the rise leading up to the gun's firing crest looks like the surface of the moon (with other Russian shells overshooting the gun and pockmarking areas well behind it). But in spite of 13 turns of continuous shelling and 150+ incoming rounds, not one Russian shell has landed within 5-10 meters of the gun's position behind the crest. This makes me wonder if there isn't some type of subtle software bug/problem at work here. If so, I have a theory on what might be causing it, but I'm curious: Has anyone else has come across an "unhittable gun" situation like this before? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevermind Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 There was a small discussion awhile back Link Not sure what the final verdict was though. Hope this helps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpineRipper Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Yes it was admitted that this is a bug. I had the same thing happen while playing one of the opperations from the SP pack, one of 50mm at gun's fired untill it was empty, battle ended, resupply, as of now the gun has not been KO'ed, while bieing fired apon by 6 t-34's and some KV's at @230 meters. I have had it work against me though, lost 2 P4's to a light gun, at 150 meters while each tank fired @ 10 time with no effect at the gun. it's all good though, some times it works for you, and other times it has you pulling your hair out, and beating up your neihbors. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 How on Earth can you kill nine T-34's with a 105mm piece? Or was it the recoilless rifle model, with ample HC ammo? Otherwise, I've got but one thing to say: "Those who wish to destroy AT guns use on-board mortars". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 I think you'll find that 105mm HE is perfectly capable of ripping the guts out of a T34!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three_Oh_Eight Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Except for the dimness of the AI, and consequent burning though ammo without changing position, is this a bug or just a reflection of reality? IRL when HE is used effectively, does it hit the gun/gun carriage itself, or the ground nearby? If it's the latter, then it seems logical that a target emplaced higher and slightly behind a rise would be darn mear impossible to hit; misses would dig up the ground in front (with shrapnel going up and out, but not up, over and down where it could affect the crew), or fly over everything into the distance, either way leaving the gun unaffected by any of the HE goodness. I too have seen and been frustrated by this in CMBB. But I'm wondering if the frustration is with a bug in the firing model or just the dumb AI. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 I think there is a problem here. Does anybody really think that it's realistic that 13 T34's targeting the one gun with HE would result in the gun being basically unscathed for the equivalent of 13 minutes, despite constantly being bombarded? Fiar enough that there should be some sort of defensive bonus for being well emplaced but to be invincible is a bit rich. I'm hopeful we'll receive some sort of comment from the guys at BFC as to whether they consider there is a problem here or not. Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 You probably wont get a response... Because it basically is a bug, the same with tanks hitting rises in the ground when they're shooting at something and they keep ploughing the ground in front of it. I always just move my tanks over or something. Yeah it is kinda ridiculous, but it rarely happens and CMBB ownz all (L33T Foo!) so we just gotta live with it.. Doesnt bug me... What bugs me is frikkin open maps in BCR where I gotta assault! Especially when the AI kicks ass! That bugs the **** outta me! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardcampa Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Originally posted by Sublime: the same with tanks hitting rises in the ground when they're shooting at something and they keep ploughing the ground in front of it.That's fixed with 1.02, just patch your cmbb. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Originally posted by hardcampa: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sublime: the same with tanks hitting rises in the ground when they're shooting at something and they keep ploughing the ground in front of it.That's fixed with 1.02, just patch your cmbb. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevermind Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 hardcampa...phil stanbridge, Again i post this, click here All this is covered,including a post from Steve about 14 posts down. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberFunBunny Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 I'm finding this bug in every game I play. I'm even starting to use it to my advantage on defense.... This needs a patch quick! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__Yossarian0815[jby] Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 had a variation of your problem: the UBER AT-gun I was advancing on a german 75mm AT gun from 2 sides with russian sherman tanks. the AT GUN wasnt pointing at either tank yet, and both my tanks had LOS (range of under 100m). then suddenly it dipped out of LOS for both tanks. next turn it appeared killed one tank, and dipped out of LOS after firing, turned undetected, and appeared again next turn killing the other tank. wish I had taken some screenshots anyway, further on in the game I turned the soviet national anthem on at max volume on my stereo and human-waved the offending AT-gun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 I think it is more the outcome of good tactics than a bug. A gun in such a position SHOULD be almost invincible to direct fire HE and should only be fearing indirect fire HE. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 ..So am I right in thinking there will be a new patch to remedy this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevermind Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Fionn, I was wanting to speak with you via email,but noticed it wasnt in your profile.Could you please email me so i could respond with my question?It deals with CMBB,and i dont want to ask you in public. hunter77@bellsouth.net 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrow Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 the AT guns invunerablety in defilade, is the worst bug I´ve ever seen en CM. Please, Battlefront "fix or do somefink" as soon as posible. New pacth are useless. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Originally posted by Fionn: I think it is more the outcome of good tactics than a bug. A gun in such a position SHOULD be almost invincible to direct fire HE and should only be fearing indirect fire HE. I would tend to agree with this. In a 'just-below-crest' position, half the shots will go over into the green fields beyond, and the other half will plough in right in front of the gun emplacement, with little damage potential. Sounds more like a case of very good luck to have such a position and good tactical skill in finding it to me. I don't think this is an acknowledged bug, from re-reading the old thread, BTW. It was deemed 'worth a look'. Unless someone has another thread with a different response from BFC. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberFunBunny Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 I would tend to agree with this. In a 'just-below-crest' position, half the shots will go over into the green fields beyond, and the other half will plough in right in front of the gun emplacement, with little damage potential. Sounds more like a case of very good luck to have such a position and good tactical skill in finding it to me. How do you explain the high percentage exposure rating with LOS from the tank to the target? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apex Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 This is not a bug, it's a good position. Tank guns have rather flat trajectories, so they are rather unsuited to hitting a target behind a slight rise, as there is a dead zone behind the crest, and it is the larger, the higher the MV of the gun. a short support gun is better against positions like that than a fast at gun. From Panzer Leader, describing the action of one Obergefreiter Maurer: "In looking for a suitable spot Maurer had strayed too far to the left and virtually lost touch with his company. But he had found an ideal position on a commanding hill and knew what he had to do. Suddenly he saw in the valley below him an enemy columnmarching south. [...] When the enemy had come close enough, Maurer opened fire on the column, which at once stopped. The men jumped out of their vehicles and took cover. Maurer saw the wounded collapse. With the help of his ammunition bearer he fired one belt after the other from his MG. The first truck caught fire, the confusion was complete. Then came the first reaction: anti-tank guns and light artillery were brought into position and opened fire. Maurer laughed. 'There's no way they can hit us from that angle, come on, let's have another belt.' The shots did indeed whistle over his head." Maurer got the Knights Cross for that action, much to his surprise. apex 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadepm Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 I think this is a bug. What the AI is doing is trying to fire at the base. I think only vehicles have actual 3D targets to shoot at. If the 105 can see them then they can see the 105, although the target would be very small. But I would think one of those 100s of shots would find the gun...if they could target it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 I can't believe that anyone would consider this a bug. People are attacking dug-in anti-tank guns with the very weapon those guns are designed to face, and then complaining when the anti-tank guns carve a swathe through them? Please. If you didn't bring onboard mortars or mortar spotters with you, I have no sympathy. Combined arms, kinder, that's the name of the game. I've used a single 50mm mortar to put a pair of AT guns in tall pines out with its ammo load of 30HE. It's not difficult. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Originally posted by UberFunBunny: What high exposure rating? First I hear mention of that. Regarding firing at the base - maybe, but still, it is a dug-in ATG behind a crest. IRL, the gun would probably only show anything above and including the barrel. I.e. it is bloody hard to hit, since it is a very small target. That is why tanks are using HE, because with that even a near miss will damage. That is why AT gunners like to dig in in places where their ATG is hard to hit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGW Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 It's not only AT guns that are the culprit. I cringe when ever my tanks or my on board arty. ( excluding mortars which ARE brutal against dug in AT )take a shot at infantry in the open and come up short by 50 or 75 meters every time diging a hole in the same spot with 8 to 10 rounds of HE. Got a bunch of down and out Ivans in a building and you just can't wait to lay the TNT snack down on the building. Think about it,you don't want a million screaming Chiniese troops poring out of the other side of that hole you just dug many meters in front of the building. I can just here my gunner saying to his Unteroffizier,at least we got anouther one of those damn dogs with the AT mines straped to their backs, and dug a deep hole for his bone. Almost every game I have this Prob. At first I thought it was reverse sloop placements or military crest placements of troops, buildings and AT guns. But it happens out in the great wide open all too much. Now if I can just get the Cmmos dirty/dusty tank mod's too load!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrow Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 This is a ABSOLUTELY bug, cause of the a/t are ABSOLUTELY invulnerable to direct fire and they can destroy your troops one by one... armor piercing round has flat trajectory but high explosive no at all. This bug could became a nightmare in PBEM games as gamey tactic. Of course defilade A/t guns has a very good cover , but they are not invulnerable to direct fire. My experiences in last pacth. it´s uber A/T guns can stand impervious to dozens HE rounds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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