o my God! ... I miss somthing or its real ??????????

[Leit]

thunder in blue sky. I am shoked!!!

I carefully check several times unit editor and can't find much russian units wich

production level was over 500 units a year during WW2.

Lets speak about artillery tracktors first and infrantery transporters.

I wonder game designers have good information about russian tanks and guns

(well at my first look ... may be later I'd be disapointed alsow) but hear

nothing about other russan vehicles.

I have found object with the mystical name "truck" in unit editor but where

artillery tractors????

How to transport this??? Horses? White bears???

www.sama.ru/~galkov/photo/artillery

We had:

1. T-20 Komsomolets:

over 7700 units produced

2. C-2 Stalinets:

3. STZ-5 (STZ-NAITI-2TV)

over 9900 units produced. / include ~3400 before war. german capture much of

them and use wide.

4. hm ... how to translate ... JA-2

1600 units.

5. Voroshilovets

The heaviest russian artillery transporter. for heavy guns. Around 800 units

prodused, over 300 units was recived but artillery units.

6. Komintern 1700 units prodused before 1940 year. 560 tractors survive to the

end of war.

7. Kommunar.

photos and drawings I have here:

www.sama.ru/~galkov/photo/tractors

So you see: excluding this large amount of units is the same that exclude all germen

artillery transporters such as presented skd kfz 7.

The strange truck called "truck" looks like as Studebaker... Heh... and where is

ZIS-5(the same vehicle class not a tank gun)? Studebakers was VERY rare before 1944 year.

ZIS-5 was all for infrantery... even more than T-34.

[ December 26, 2002, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: Leit ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Were Russian field artillery tractors and heavy guns commonly employed directly in infantry battalion fighting positions?

Would they likely be moved during the course of a 30 minute battalion-action taking part in the vicinity?

The reason that stuff is not included is because it is not in the scope of the game.

[Leit]

way they add sdkfz 7?

Some of artillery transports I talking about was the same class and their production level the same.

[Leit]

Michael Dorosh

T-20 & STZ-2 for batalion level.

I found 85 AA gun .. its to heavy for t-20 even on weels.

Look at photos. Moust tractors transports batalion artillery.

[ December 26, 2002, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: Leit ]

[Michael Emrys]

You may be right, Leit. I don't know enough on this subject to argue the point. And while I do not represent BST nor do I speak for them, the point has been made before that there was a limit to how many vehicles they could include in the game, given time and manpower constraints. The German units may have gotten in simply because they are well documented and information on the Soviet equipment is a bit harder to come by here in the West. Hopefully some future iteration of the game will correct the oversight.

Michael

[Schrullenhaft]

I guess that the Soviet artillery tractors didn't make it in because they weren't a priority compared to the numbers of combat AFVs that had to be added. The SdKfz 7's made it in because the model and textures for those were already existing from CMBO.

There are far fewer 3D models of guns in CMBB than there were in CMBO and this is part of the reason why the artillery tractors aren't in (at least that would be my guess).

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Schrullenhaft:

I guess that the Soviet artillery tractors didn't make it in because they weren't a priority compared to the numbers of combat AFVs that had to be added. The SdKfz 7's made it in because the model and textures for those were already existing from CMBO.

There are far fewer 3D models of guns in CMBB than there were in CMBO and this is part of the reason why the artillery tractors aren't in (at least that would be my guess).

Another good guess would be that the lads at BFC opted not to spend time endlessly modeling bunches of gun tractors that were:

1) Almost completely outside the scope of the tactical, sharp end of the stick frame of reference of CMBB

2) Almost never going to be purchased by players as a useless waste of points given the tactical nature of the game

3) Would, in any case, simply end up as so much burnt out, abandoned equipment in any given battle

Ask yourself this: When was the last time you seriously concerned yourself with spending 100 or so points making sure that the correct gun tractors were being used to move artillery pieces in a 30-60 minute battle in which you never actually had the time or luxury of moving artillery pieces around?

It boils down to whether people are playing an historical sim tonka truck documentary, or fighting a battle.

I can think of a few games in which I had to load up some Artillery and move, or rather, 'attempt' to move it. In no case can I think of how that job would have been made more 'personally significant' if it was carried out by a gun tractor, as opposed to a 'truck', or even a twenty-mule team.

Quite often the result was an abandoned gun, a burning 'transport' unit, and a certain amount of bad language over the failure to move my gun assets to a more 'advantageous' position.

Now, I can imagine that there are certain situations, and perhaps even certain advantages to be gained, by using one of the many, many fabulous gun tractors that the Soviets doubtless produced in an unending stream during the War.

But, in general, it simply doesn't mean a bloody thing within the scope, timeframe, and intended purpose of the game.

That shouldn't stop anyone from dancing around shouting 'Oh My God! The Russian Gun Tractors normally used kilometers away from the action to move field pieces seldom found on the immediate battlefield outside the time-frame of a normal fire-fight are not modeled in the game!' BFC fix, or face the wrath of Soviet Tractor Enthusiasts Everywhere!

What is this, a wargame, or a Monster Truck Rally?

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Yes, but I think the point Leit is trying to make is that the German gun "tractors" i.e. the SdKfz 7 is in the game to enable you to move 88's and the like while there is no Soviet equivalent to allow you to move the 85mm AA gun or 76mm AA gun. In effect, the Germans are favoured over the Soviets in this admittedly reasonably minor area.

Regards

Jim R.

[Stalin's Organ]

Probably because the Germans made considerable use of the 88 as a mobile AT gun in the front line - not soemthing that was commonly done by the Russian AA guns.

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann:

Yes, but I think the point Leit is trying to make is that the German gun "tractors" i.e. the SdKfz 7 is in the game to enable you to move 88's and the like while there is no Soviet equivalent to allow you to move the 85mm AA gun or 76mm AA gun. In effect, the Germans are favoured over the Soviets in this admittedly reasonably minor area.

Regards

Jim R.

Agreed, but, as has been said, the German tractor is in because the work had already been done.

But I believe that the actual game-play benefits conferred by using the correctly 'modeled' Soviet gun tractor aren't serious enough to merit the research, graphics modeling, rarity calculations, unit specs, etc. needed to correctly include them, given their limited relevance to frontline combat . It might be nice if BFC were able to do 'representative' Russian tractor capable of moving the major pieces. But seriously, how often is it necessary, or even worthwhile, to move a major field piece during the course of an average CMBB battle?

Still, as I say, a 'representative' tractor might be nice.

But don't go all reasonable on me, Kanonier. I know you, lad, and I've got my eye on you, I have. Bloody Aussie...

[Andreas]

Leit, why don't you do a search. The topic has been discussed at length already.

[Yeknodathon]

Originally posted by Seanachai:

But seriously, how often is it necessary, or even worthwhile, to move a major field piece during the course of an average CMBB battle?

Extremely necessary. This truely is the best Tonka Truck Rally game me snout has the privilege to sniff... *sniff*... apart for the lack of Russian tractors.

I have to walk 'em; inch by inch, uphill and downhill, round the woods, through each depressing little village, and through the slowest bog. And then, when everything reaches the right place... it all ends.

I like to think its a commentary on life...

Bother.

Yeknod

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by Seanachai:

But don't go all reasonable on me, Kanonier. I know you, lad, and I've got my eye on you, I have. Bloody Aussie...

So tell me Seanachai... do I send you some hate mail straight away or should I wait until New Years Eve before sending it?

Regards

Jim R.

[MrNoobie]

The strange truck called "truck" looks like as Studebaker... Heh... and where is

ZIS-5(the same vehicle class not a tank gun)? Studebakers was VERY rare before 1944 year.

ZIS-5 was all for infrantery... even more than T-34.

i agree with this. i even tried to redo the textures of the "truck" with a ZIS-5 texture. should i even try? hmmm maybe this is one of the vehicles that has a new model for the next patch.

[ December 27, 2002, 06:26 AM: Message edited by: MrNoobie ]

[Guest Sgt. Emren]

What is this, a wargame, or a Monster Truck Rally?

Well, it would be cool if it could be both, now wouldn't it?

[The_Fur]

First post on the forum but I'd just like to say that IMO it's VERY important to be able to move your big guns during any fight. My usual fights are either 30 and 40 turns in length and I frequently move my guns during them around. Especially guns like the german 150mm inf gun see a lot of mocvement to keep them in a position to support the advancing infantry.

Furthermore it seems the russians also have a serious lack of vehicles to transport infantry while as seen from the pics and numbers they apparently had plenty of them around.

On that subject... where is the russian equivalent? Was there a russian equivalent? (of the 150mm inf gun).

[ December 27, 2002, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: The_Fur ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Is this the first "German bias" post we've had regarding CMBB. or did I miss that? I miss all those posts from the CMBO days, actually.

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Seanachai:

But don't go all reasonable on me, Kanonier. I know you, lad, and I've got my eye on you, I have. Bloody Aussie...

So tell me Seanachai... do I send you some hate mail straight away or should I wait until New Years Eve before sending it?

Regards

Jim R.</font>

[demoss]

On that subject... where is the russian equivalent? Was there a russian equivalent? (of the 150mm inf gun).

I believe the Russians had a big ol' 37mm inf gun. Horse-drawn, I think. Other than that, well, there's the SU-152.

[Leit]

New idea:

Abandoned (or damaged.. immobilised) armor (or other units) mast be towed to your positions for repare, refit to be reused.... included enemy units for the next engine.

If you don't evacuate your units how do they would be refited/repared ... Advansing tank colums usualy uncluds "GTR" ... tecnical reconance groops wich evacuate damaged (alied and enemy) units from battlefield under fire. The most safty time for tow them out - during battle.

Any transport column includs transporters.

All tanks must have possibility to tow abandoned enemy and alied armor(vehicles, guns and so on) to reuse.

One more idea. When havy infrantery wepon (lt. guns, mortars, hmg etc)runs out ammunition crew can abandon and hide them and move faster. Next battle they have chance to reach that hidden unit they get it out... Standart partizan tactic.

[Stalin's Organ]

Originally posted by Leit:

New idea:

Abandoned (or damaged.. immobilised) armor (or other units) mast be towed to your positions for repare, refit to be reused.... included enemy units for the next engine..

Liet you're completely missing the point of this game.

There is provision for use of captured equipment already, but the recovery of working or repair of damaged enemy equipment and the issue of it to your own units is not something that is ever going to be in it (IMO).

.

If you don't evacuate your units how do they would be refited/repared ... Advansing tank colums usualy uncluds "GTR" ... tecnical reconance groops wich evacuate damaged (alied and enemy) units from battlefield under fire. The most safty time for tow them out - during battle.

Any transport column includs transporters..

This is already simulated in operations - you can recover your own damaged, abandoned and immobilised vehicles between battles in an operation but it depends upon the scenario designer setting the options for the operation.

there are options for the level of technical support and for supply which affect how readily you receive repaired vehicles.

All tanks must have possibility to tow abandoned enemy and alied armor(vehicles, guns and so on) to reuse..

Outside the scope of the battle. This kind of thing happens after the battle is finished.

One more idea. When havy infrantery wepon (lt. guns, mortars, hmg etc)runs out ammunition crew can abandon and hide them and move faster. Next battle they have chance to reach that hidden unit they get it out... Standart partizan tactic.

Same again - partizans in CMBB are fighting battles - not setting weapon stashes!

[Stalin's Organ]

Originally posted by demoss:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> On that subject... where is the russian equivalent? Was there a russian equivalent? (of the 150mm inf gun).

I believe the Russians had a big ol' 37mm inf gun. Horse-drawn, I think. Other than that, well, there's the SU-152. </font>

[ichadwick]

I agree that the utility vehicles aren't really necessary - sure the Soviets had armoured tractors to tow artillery and reclaim tanks. But at this scale and timeframe they're irrelevant.

But... (always a but)...

Does anyone know if the Soviets have Katyusha rockets/mortars here? I haven't encountered any (yet). And they certainly were in use during small-scale battles, especially late in the war. Are they available?

In fact, some of the WW2 Katyushas found themselves in the Middle East - Afghanistan, Lebanon and others - as recently as the 1980s (maybe 90s).

[Björn Eriksson]

Originally posted by ichadwick:

Does anyone know if the Soviets have Katyusha rockets/mortars here? I haven't encountered any (yet). And they certainly were in use during small-scale battles, especially late in the war. Are they available?

They are available as off-board rocket artillery.

[Leit]

"In fact, some of the WW2 Katyushas found themselves in the Middle East - Afghanistan, Lebanon and others - as recently as the 1980s (maybe 90s). "

BM-13 "Katyusha" never saw Afgan ... well I wonder if even modjaheds use them: "Alosan" or somth like that more useful. There were systems like that:

http://www.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/grad/grad.htm

BM-13 looks like that one:

http://www.modelist.dux.ru/zvezda/3521.htm

Feel the diference

To the point. Realy, russian assoult tactic called 'frontpoket' includs BM-13 at the first advansing lines BUT their targets wasn't at first defensive lines they have to storm deeper positions to stoon enemy mobility and prevent enemy get advantages from coordination.

I wonder they coud fire on range of game scale battles.