Flamethrowers and how to use them...

[Rufus1268]

Newbie question:

What's an effective way of using flamethrower teams? Intially they seem ultra-useful in clearing out entrenched infantry and the like, but the downside is I can never bring them in close enough to use them! They're a high priority target for enemy infantry so they tend to get picked off well before I can bring them into toasting range.

Any advice would be much appreciated!

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Rufus1268:

Newbie question:

What's an effective way of using flamethrower teams? Intially they seem ultra-useful in clearing out entrenched infantry and the like, but the downside is I can never bring them in close enough to use them! They're a high priority target for enemy infantry so they tend to get picked off well before I can bring them into toasting range.

Any advice would be much appreciated!

a) search for older threads

when you bring them along, make sure they are as long as possible out of sight. Once they close in, make sure you suppress anybody around. Or use them to draw fire and assault with anybody else. Read: offer other targets that - if ignored - will pose threats even worse than flamers.

c) Use them in dense terrain (woods or city).

d) Use them on the defense

Gruß

Joachim

[PantherV]

e) read the thread Flamethrowers vs. Armor

it has good tips on how to use flamethrowers

[Thin Red Line]

They're good at defense (ambushes).

In attack they can be used at the critical point of the firefight against an well entrenched enemy , when the ennemy is slightly too powerful to be overrun in an acceptable amount of time and ammo by the sole firepower of the rifles, the FT makes them panic and rout very quickly at a minimum cost (casualty and ammo-wise).

The trick is to bring them at efficient range without being spotted. Double stealth bonus HQ and use of sneak command (on the last few meters, they get tired pretty fast) does help.

But the FTs remain one of the most difficult unit to use properly and to make survive the battle.

[Bonxa]

If you believe it safe you can bring it up in a battlefield taxi (Half-Track). The regular infantry must be in command of the situation anyway though or the FT will just get wiped out when they disembark. It does eliminate the long and hazardous trip into the most forward position.

Defence on a reverse slope or close terrain is where they shine.

[Slappy]

I generally find them pretty useless on the attack, but have just used them to great effect twice in an ongoing PBEM (CMAK). My opponent had a trench set up inside of a woodline (no LOS outside of the trees) in an area that I needed to cross to avoid some nasty bocage. I'd already had most of a platoon shot to hell on an earlier attempt to storm the trench. In the next run, I sent squads on advance into LOS followed immediately in the same turn by the FTs on move. The squads drew most of the fire and the FTs were able to get off several bursts. One was ordered to area fire in front of the trench (no actual LOS needed). 90 sec later, the units in the trench were in a full on rout and my troops were catching their breath in the enemy position. Same method worked well in taking a position further back on the same line of advance.

Here's my assessment on why this works, particularly in the later versions of CM. Greater FOW, particularly in dense areas like woods doesn't allow the other player or the TAC AI to pick off FTs the way it sometimes will. Everything looks like 'Infantry?' in the woods. Also, FTs are area effect weapons with great morale impacts that have been bumped up in BB/AK. Area fire is nearly as effective as targeted fire due to the large spread and a near miss is enough to make all but fanatical units run for it. Smaller ammo loads and faster ROF will eat up most if not all of the fuel in a US FT in one turn, but that's better than being shot up.

Just some new thoughts on an ageless topic, based on real experience.

[PiggDogg]

Over a long stretch of CM play, on attack and on defense, in woods, place FT teams as close as possible, right behind (4 to 6 meters) one's front line, good order infantry. The enemy (somewhat less than 25 meters from your front line infantry, probably 15 to 20 meters) will be tied up shooting at your front line infantry, and the FT will have a chance to fire their napalm. :eek:

This has been the only consistent way that I have found FT teams able to fire and not get whacked before they fire. :eek:

By the way, at least in that small patch of the fire fight that is within the FT team's range (30 to 50 meters), the FT team's Greek Fire will most frequently turn the tide of battle into your guys' favor. The enemy squads diminished and at least panicked will be running to the rear with hot pants ablaze. :eek:

Cheers, Richard

[ March 07, 2004, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: PiggDogg ]

[xerxes]

If the enemy has packed troops into a relatively small area, the FT on a "miss" can often hit other enemy units. Always a bonus.

The trick with area targeting and conserving FT ammo is to use a pause and then a sneak to stop the FT from continuing to shoot after the first 1 or 2 flame shots.

[JasonC]

Don't.

If you don't get a heck of a lot out of your FTs because they tend to die on you, you are not alone. While players love to retell the "fish stories" of the best thing the ever did with an FT, do not mistake this for typical effectiveness. The typical FT is lucky to do what a less expensive team manages to do just as well or better, while a solid half of them just die without getting a shot off.

What do I mean by less effective at best? Well, static defending FTs can ambush armor. So can any engineer with demo charges, at similar ranges. With fast movement and much greater robustness under fire. A line of them can block limited gaps in terrain. So can AT mines, 40-60m worth for the cost of a typical FT. Zooks and schrecks are better for most anti-armor work, too.

Or, they can KO infantry in cover, as long as they can get to 40m away without being shot at. So can SMG squads, moving faster and better able to take being shot at. So can demo equipped engineers, ditto. And HE at range does it much more easily than any of the above. One of the real uses of FTs in the real war was to KO bunkers, but firing slits are so easy to hit in CM that light AA is better at it than FTs are.

If you are given FTs in a scenario, use them from stationary ambush in conditions with tight LOS (woods, reverse slope, built up town), or on the attack use them after firepower has driven enemies away from their forward positions (front windows, treeline, crest). You want marginal LOS to the cover the enemy is in e.g. see part-way into a building but not all the way to the enemy at the back of it. Then use "area fire". But do not expect too much. If they work, great. If they don't, do not be surprised and be sure your plan can withstand it, because it is quite likely.

[PiggDogg]

I did not make this clear in my earlier post in this thread. However, I never, ever buy FT teams or FT vehicles for that matter. Despite the few times that they work spectacularly well, usually they die before they can do anything. They are way too iffy for the points spent.

Cheers, Richard

[walpurgis nacht]

Flamethrowers on the attack:

The best conditions for FTs to shine are in a towns, or maps with medium-heavy cover. You have to be in a position to get them close. If it’s an open, light cover map just forget about them. . . maybe use them as cannon fodder to draw enemy fire away from a pivotal thrust forward on your advance.

If you can get them close, they are monsters. The mistake most people make is that they bring the FTs into LOS of what they are attacking. As has been noted many times these types of attacks lead to a hasty expiration of your FTs.

It is much more effective to get close to what you want to strike at, but remain just out of LOS, and then area target. The FT spread is relatively wide and effective roughly within a 5 x 5 meter grid. So for example, sneak forward just far enough to get a keyhole into a building where an enemy squad sits, area target close to the squad, and enjoy the rout. Or in a large woods patch, once the enemy is located, sneak the FTs to 27 meters away from the enemy positions (LOS in woods is 26 meters, so he won’t see you), and area target just in front of the enemy position.

You always want to coordinate FT attacks with your other infantry. FT breaks/routs quickly, but doesn’t necessarily kill all that well. You should have your infantry close, covering likely avenues the enemy squad will run through once he’s routed, so you can eliminate him and avoid the possibility of meeting him again once he’s rallied.

[Joachim]

FTs are slow, fragile and have a short range.

The trick ist to let the FT draw fire and thus relieve your other units. Of course you gotta make sure it survives as long as possible while your other units whack the enemy busy killing your FT.

If the enemy has to decide: Do I kill the FT and get punished by those others or do I shoot at the others and risk the FT getting close, your FT is worth something.

Remember "all is quiet on the western front"? The FT is the thing that makes the 3 Germans shudder. One targets the FT. A rifleman with the FT kills the shooter. The remaining two Germans retreat.

Scorer point for the rifle, assist point to the FT.

Gruß

Joachim

[ March 09, 2004, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Joachim ]

[Yggdrasill]

I agree with most of what is written in the other posts, though I cannot concur with JasonC and PiggDoggthat FTs are always inferior to other units that can accomplish the same things (e.g. taking out tanks, killing infantry at close range, etc.)

For one thing, FTs can set buildings (and terrain tiles) on fire, which can be very useful. For another, FT tanks with their superior range can dislodge enemy infantry from positions that might take a high toll on assaulting friendly infantry. Sure, you can bombard with a regular gun, but that can take a while against heavy buildings. So if you're pressed for time, a couple of FT bursts will clear the enemy right out.

Walpurgis offers good pointers for using FTs on the attack. FTs are difficult to manage, which is why so many players get frustrated with them, but used correctly they offer unique characteristics. That said, I don't recommend buying them, but if you get them (say, as part of an engineer platoon) they can be used to great effect.

thor

[JasonC]

Vehicle FTs are an entirely different matter. The reason foot teams don't work is they combine extreme vulnerability to enemy fire with a need to get very close. Just about anything that can get that close completely untouched can do what foot FTs can do, and typically more, and typically for less. But vehicle FTs can be invulnerable to some enemies at the range they need, which is typically much longer than foot FTs. Wasps, Pz III Flamm, and OT-34s all have their uses. Foot FTs on the other hand, the item the original poster asked about, basically just suck, and he should not blame himself if he gets little out of them, or think he is missing something. He isn't. They just suck.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by JasonC:

They just suck.

FTs are king of the mountain in town battles and heavy terrain. You say they suck because they die if you bring them close. Read my previous suggestions and you can shrug your unnecessary concern.

FTs are much better than demo. In blast value, demo acts similar to a 105mm HE round. Enemy squads with a decent experience level can shrug a few 105mm rounds if they don't hit exactly on target, and thrown demo often doesn't. If the defender is in a trench you’re even less likely to crack him, even if the demo is accurate. FTs will break anything, anywhere, that is within 5 meters of the flame stream . . . even elite troops.

1 FT alone is not going to be useful, but when used in concert with infantry there is synergy. The FT just for routing, providing the infantry a safe opportunity to be aggressive and clean up the mess, unopposed.

In a town battle where you don’t have armored support (or don’t want to risk your armor moving into a town) there is no better way available to attack and break enemy positions. Likewise, in a rural situation there are few things that are more effective. Perhaps faster, but not as effective . . . unless we’re talking accurate 170mm and up.

[ March 10, 2004, 02:31 AM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ]

[JasonC]

I am sure Walpurgis thinks he is being helpful to Rufus1268. But actually he is not. If he consults the entire record of his own experience with foot FT teams, he would probably notice this. Mostly they just die, without repaying their cost. Trenches and buildings are both best dealt with via direct fire HE. Weapons that need to crawl within 50m of them without being shot at a single time are at best marginal.

Yes, if other fire has already driven all defenders away from up positions, occasionally it can help. But the average new player can no more expect to succeed in this than to earn his livelihood picking money off trees. If an expert gets it to work a third to half of the time when conditions are perfect, he is doing well. They rarely are perfect, and paying for FTs when one has any option in the matter is nearly always a mistake.

[Dschugaschwili]

Originally posted by JasonC:

They just suck.

Now that's a bit harsh. Of course you won't accomplish something with every single FT you have, but the same is true for any other unit.

If a scenario gives me some FT teams, I can usually get a good effect out of at least a third of them on the attack, and more than half of them on the defense.

Everyone who doesn't believe that FTs can be very important should play "Winter Wonderland" on the CMBB CD as the Germans.

Dschugaschwili

[RawRecruit]

Only time I've managed to use FTs on the attack is during night battles when they can approach quite close while remaining undetected. Of course, I also had an OT-34 rain fiery death on my own troops at night through misidentification :mad:

[Slappy]

They suck. Don't intentionally buy them. If you're given them (scenario or you need to buy them to get an engineer platoon to clear mines), use these suggestions on how you may be able to make them more than useless if you're skillful and lucky.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by JasonC:

I am sure Walpurgis thinks he is being helpful to Rufus1268. But actually he is not. If he consults the entire record of his own experience with foot FT teams, he would probably notice this. Mostly they just die, without repaying their cost.

Hmmm. I didn't know you were so entirely familiar with my record of FT use. Best to avoid using facts you find through supernatural telepathy as a crux in your arguments.

You're wrong on this. Just because you can't use them well, doesn't mean it can't be done with relative ease and to great effect.

[xerxes]

I personally find manportable FTs extremely useful support weapons. My opponents agree with me, and I don't play people who suck.

Are FTs a great QB purchase? No. For a variety of reasons. FTs are hard to use well. The QB map generator doesn't create FT friendly maps even in towns. HTs to ferry FTs are expensive to purchase. You can load up on cheap smg units, etc, etc.

The more relevant question is how to use them effectively in scenarios which is where most CM players will encounter them. If you don't know how to use FTs, it will hurt you badly in a fair number of scenarios. Saying FTs "suck" isn't really helpful to the player who is given a pioneer company in a scenario to support his mission. Early brit armored cars also "suck" but if that's what you have you better darn well figure out how to use them effectively.

Walpurgis is absolutely correct in describing the importance of using area targeting out of LOS as one effective deployment tactic.

[Ron]

Originally posted by xerxes:

Saying FTs "suck" isn't really helpful to the player...

Walpurgis is absolutely correct in describing the importance of using area targeting out of LOS as one effective deployment tactic.

Double yep to that, same to their effectiveness in built-up areas and night battles. In fact, IMO, a more *elegant* tool than HE in dislocating an enemy line, just make sure to have someone around to cut down the ones fleeing!

Ron

[Slappy]

This created a little more tension than your average Tip or Trick. Let's see if we can bring a bit of synthesis to the conversation. I think the following resolutions can be widely agreed upon.

Resolved:

1. FTs are expensive.

2. FTs are, in many situations (crossing almost any amount of open ground under fire), extremely difficult to use effectively.

3. FTs can be, in limited circumstances (urban, heavy trees) very powerful, but even then they are not a sure thing.

4. FTs are also easy to kill and have low ammo making them a limited use weapon.

5. All of these make FTs hopeless in many situations and a bit of a gamble even in the best of situations.

6. Skilled use, the right terrain and a bit of luck can get good results, but they are not a panacea and not for the feint of heart or the inexperienced. Use at your own risk and practice if you want to get positive results. If you are uncomfortable or inexperienced with FTs, you can probably find something more consistent to spend your points on.

Discuss.

[JasonC]

Xerxes, if you review the thread I think you will find I described the out of LOS area fire tactic in my very first post on the subject. That is certainly the right way to use them when you have them, which I covered fully.

But yes, it is helpful to a new player, as the original poster freely described himself, to explain that it is not just him. FTs in CM are not FTs in Squad Leader. They are brittle and they are marginal, and it is not newbie inexperience that makes them so.

There aren't three tricks to using them correctly after which they magically transform into uberweapons. The closest things to such tricks are riding, waiting until defenders are in "back" positions, and out of LOS area fire - all of which have been covered. They do not suffice to make them even consistently useful, let alone uberweapons.

Walpurgis claiming "relative ease and to great effect" is just puffing his own chest. Which benefits the questioner not at all.

[Ron]

Originally posted by Slappy:

This created a little more tension than your average Tip or Trick. Let's see if we can bring a bit of synthesis to the conversation. I think the following resolutions can be widely agreed upon.

Resolved:

1. FTs are expensive.

2. FTs are, in many situations (crossing almost any amount of open ground under fire), extremely difficult to use effectively.

3. FTs can be, in limited circumstances (urban, heavy trees) very powerful, but even then they are not a sure thing.

4. FTs are also easy to kill and have low ammo making them a limited use weapon.

5. All of these make FTs hopeless in many situations and a bit of a gamble even in the best of situations.

6. Skilled use, the right terrain and a bit of luck can get good results, but they are not a panacea and not for the feint of heart or the inexperienced. Use at your own risk and practice if you want to get positive results. If you are uncomfortable or inexperienced with FTs, you can probably find something more consistent to spend your points on.

Discuss.

Not sure if you are sincere here or trying to prove a point. Anyways here goes:

1. Not sure why that matters, even if you are a *competitive* QB player they can give you a big dividend in the end. As stated several times, they are only useful in certain situations ie a city map or at night. I wouldn't really consider them at all for a Heavy Woods map. You are trying for a "combined arms" force, the FT(s) are just one small tool in the kit, sure you may be able to do without it but it is the right tool for specific jobs.

2. I would say any unit trying to cross open ground under fire will have a difficult time, no need to single out FTs. Most battles are sufficient in length where you have plenty of time to advance your FTs to the attack position. Otherwise, or regardless, obviously there is transport available to do the carrying over open ground.

3. What is a sure thing?? How about that Tiger you bought? Is there some sort of guarantee with that?

4. Yep, FTs are a magnet alright and can get wiped out easily if you aren't careful. Well, there are ways around the FT expending all its ammo immediately, not too difficult really to conserve.

5. Read 1-4 above again. A calculated gamble like any other choice, whether arty or tank or AT gun.

6. Not sure what to comment, but if you know your limitations or preferences then good for you.

Ron