Effective range of Antitank rifles, Panzerschrecks, etc

[Adamo]

What do you guys think is an effective range for these weapons? Is 100 meters too far away to take out a tank, etc....

[Bonxa]

I just spent two zook loads (16 rounds) on a Tiger at just over 100m in TCP/IP battel versus a friend. Not a one of them hit. (A M10 TD then tried it's luck and cracked to APCBC shells on the front turret at 200m before being put out of it's misery.)

To get first shot kills with zooks and schrecks it seems you have to be under 50m or else have very many of them.

As for AT-rifles, they have so much ammo and are so hard to detect that I would open fire at maximum range. Don't expect anything though.

[Sergei]

AT rocket weapons: normally your opponent is capable of getting first shot hits with catastrophic results at ranges of 150-200 m. Your own Schrecks/'Zooks have best chances at ranges of 50-80 m, and even then half of the time they miss and the rocket kills one of your own men.

AT rifles: it is the norm that your enemy routinely kills platoons of your MBT's with a single ATR with subsequent immobilizations, gun damages and killing your commanders even if they are buttoned (gotta love those weak spot penetrations). All the while you get nothing more than a sound contact. Your own ATR's are spotted after their first shot and killed instantly by crossfire from 17 enemy guns, so they don't have an effective range.

[flamingknives]

Check the to-hit percentage and the kill chance.

That should give you a good idea.

[YankeeDog]

It varies depending on a number of factors:

(1) Exactly which weapon you're talking about

(2) The specific AFV you're targeting

(3) Aspect to the target (i.e, frontal, side, rear)

(4) Experience level of the AT team (i.e., Regular, Vet, etc.)

The first thing to recognize is that most Infantry Anti-Tank weapons, such as Panzershrecks and Panzerfausts, Bazookas, Rifle Grenades, Panzerwurfmines etc. are 'shaped charge' weapons. This means they use the explosive power of their warhead to penetrate armor, not their kinetic energy as a projective. As such, range does not affect penetration ability at all. All other things being equal, assuming the rocket hits, a Panzershreck is just as likely to KO a Sherman at its maximum range of 225m as it is a 10m.

HOWEVER, chance of hitting the AFV goes down rapidly with range for these weapons, owing mostly to the fact that they are unguided, low-velocity rocket projectiles. Again, there are lot of variables that affect hit %, like size of the target, whether or not the target is moving, experience of the IAT team, etc., but for "Rocket Launcher" type AT weapons (zooks, schrecks, and PIAT, though the PIAT is technically not purely a rocket launcher) as a general rule of thumb you need to be at about 2/3 of it's maximum range to see a significant chance of hitting the target, and to have a good chance, you need to be within about 1/2 of the maximum range. So a Panzershreck, with a maximum range of 225m, shots over about 150m are generally a waste, and you usually want to wait until about 110m before opening up.

Next step down the range ladder is the "one shot" self-propelled AT weapons, chiefly Panzerfausts and Rifle Grenades. With these it's a bit different since you as the player don't have direct control over when these weapons are used. Usually, Infantry Units are reluctant to use these weapons until they feel like they have a good chance of hitting and killing the tank since they usually have a very limited supply of such weapons and a missed shot will almost certainly bring retribution from the tank. So you don't usually need to worry about wasting these weapons on low percentage long-range shots. Sometimes, though, squads with a large number of AT weapons (3 or 4) will be more willing to shoot them off at long range. Anyway, with Panzerfausts, the 2/3 of max range rule also seems to roughly apply - i.e., an infantry unit with Pz-100s will generally hold fire until the target is within about 65m. The major exception is the Pz-30, which I have actually seen used out to about 40m - I suppose this is to model the idea that with the short-range Pz-30, one squad member might sneak a bit closer to the tank before firing. FYI, it seems that most squads will open up with Rifle Grenades somewhere around the 50m mark. Note that rifle grenades have a substantially smaller HE charge than Panzerfausts, so their penetration and kill chances are much lower.

The shortest range weapons are the hand-thrown or placed AT weapons, like demo charges, Panzerwurfmines, Molotovs, and even plain old hand grenades. These are TacAI-controlled as well. You definitely need to be within 40m for these, and sub-30m is better. There also does seem to be some variation depending on type. Panzerwurfmines do seem to be more likely to be used (and hit) out at 40m, demo charges in particular seem to be unlikely to be used beyond 30m - maybe someone else has more definitive information on this.

Finally, there are the AT rifles, which I have deliberately left for last because they are a totally different type of weapon. AT rifles fire solid steel shot and penetrate armor by kinetic energy rather than chemical energy. Therefore their penetration ability does decrease with range. Most AT rifles in CM have a max range of about 800m, but penetration becomes pretty low at the extreme end of the range envelope. Also, AT rifles are very stealthy when firing and also have a very high ROF, which makes low hit % shots more palatable - if you can get off 10-15 shots in a single turn, it's OK if the hit chance of each individual shot is low. Unfortunately, the kill chance is also very low with AT rifles, even at point-blank range. In my experience, the best tactic with AT rifles against tanks is to try to use them in the 200-400m range against a flank or rear aspect, where they will have some chance of penetration againt most tanks (though not all - Tigers, for example, are virtually invulnerable to ATR fire!). At these ranges, the chance of the firing ATR being spotted is very low, so it will be able to shoot without fear of return fire, but the ATR still has some chance of penetrating and damaging the tank. The major exception would be if you're using them against a really lightly armored target like a halftrack or light armored car, in which case you can sometimes still penetrate at very long range (500m+). High experience level ATR team (Veteran and above) can be excellent long-range light armor killers.

Cheers,

YD

[Slappy]

Outside ranges, best results at half of number listed.

Shreck: 100m

PIAT/Zook: 75m

ATR: 400m, unless chance to kill is none

Squad Bonus Weapons: Doesn't matter. They'll fire or no of their own accord.

[flamingknives]

Note that PIATs, being spigot mortars and not rocket launchers, have a far smaller firing signature than a 'zook or 'schrek. As such you will most likely get more shots off before being spotter.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by Adamo:

What do you guys think is an effective range for these weapons? Is 100 meters too far away to take out a tank, etc....

with antitank rifles shoot at all ranges. you may get a gun hit or immobilize the tank.

with schrecks shoot at all ranges, except if the target is moving. if the target is moving i wouldn't shoot on ranges longer than some 60 meters.

[Sanok]

Originally posted by Adamo:

What do you guys think is an effective range for these weapons? Is 100 meters too far away to take out a tank, etc....

Not when you're facing a shreck controlled by the AI. I've seen them paste my tanks with the first shot from 150-200 meters so many times, I've wanted to throw the disk.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by KarlXII:

I just spent two zook loads (16 rounds) on a Tiger at just over 100m in TCP/IP battel versus a friend. Not a one of them hit. (A M10 TD then tried it's luck and cracked to APCBC shells on the front turret at 200m before being put out of it's misery.)

To get first shot kills with zooks and schrecks it seems you have to be under 50m or else have very many of them.

Anything 100 meters and under is fair game for the zook. Depending on experience and attached HQ combat bonus, they can hit a parked AFV from farther away even still, but I keep 100 as a general "max range". Of course the preference is to wait until the AFV is as close as possible.

There are many variables that impact the "to hit" chance. Play around in the scenario editor to explore them all.

Try for that flank shot! The side of the tank is a larger target, and in turn is easier to hit. . . . not to mention the armor is likely thinner.

As to the effectiveness of the zook HC itself, the lethality is increased in the coming AK patch.

On the flip side, the best way to shrug off schreks/zooks is to keep your AFVs moving as much as possible, and keep them out 150 meters or more from the nearest possible enemy threat.

[Bonxa]

I think the major reason why my zooks missed was that they were in the middle of a major small arms fight. And the Tiger prudently showed it's big side to me. Just taunting though as my guys couldn't hit it anyhow.

[Redwolf]

The hit probabilities for ranges are given in the editor and in-game when using the LOS or target tool.

What makes an "effective" range is entirely up to your own idea of it and the tactical situation.

[Carl Puppchen]

Don't forget that CMAK 1.0 has taken out the backblast impact of shreks and zooks. I think this is one of the items that will be in CMAK 1.01, or at least lots of people are clamoring for it. This adds a significantly different challenge since shooting them in a building causes fires or suppresses your units and they can even start fires behind them if it is dry enough outside. If you know your guy is going to be suppressed that is all the more reason to wait until the tank is VERY close, since the tank will have a long time to train its turret on you and shoot. Best behavior is to set them up in rubble or woods.

Don't forget about tank hunters. They can be setup with an armored covered arc. This is important and in my experience makes them more likely to use their weapons that you can't control thru the Tac AI. Also veteran or elite plays a big factor - try playing GD441026 Delaying Action a scenario where a few elite tank hunters take on late war Soviet tanks. I had a tank hunter team pump three direct hit fausts' into a tank before the "death clock" kicked in...

[CRSutton]

I had the chance to lift and shoulder a schreck. It is an amazingly heavy and cumbersome weapon. I would think aiming it from a standing position would almost be impossible. I am fairly strong but the act of just balancing the weapon to sight it took all my strength. (Put an eight foot extension ladder on your shoulder and try to point it at different items. Then try to point it at a moving vehicle.) I would think that, except under the best of circumstances, it would be impossible to hit a moving target at ranges over 100m and very hard to hit a stationary target.

Even the lowly piat was a fairly heavy weapon.

[PLM]

Originally posted by Sergei:

AT rocket weapons: normally your opponent is capable of getting first shot hits with catastrophic results at ranges of 150-200 m. Your own Schrecks/'Zooks have best chances at ranges of 50-80 m, and even then half of the time they miss and the rocket kills one of your own men.

AT rifles: it is the norm that your enemy routinely kills platoons of your MBT's with a single ATR with subsequent immobilizations, gun damages and killing your commanders even if they are buttoned (gotta love those weak spot penetrations). All the while you get nothing more than a sound contact. Your own ATR's are spotted after their first shot and killed instantly by crossfire from 17 enemy guns, so they don't have an effective range.

why is this true? i just played the CMAK demo attacking the German bridge and in one turn i lost 5 sherman tanks to Panzerfaust fire from over 70 to almost 200 meters. At least 3 of those tanks were killed the first shot the enemy fired.