Crappy Russian Tanks

[Major Disorder]

Originally posted by Nolloff:

Thanks for changing the name.

Check this thread and the others that spawned from it...

Yellow livered IS-2s

Nolloff

Thanks for the link to the thread.It seems I'm not the only one it happens to

[Nolloff]

Don´t draw the wrong conclusions. What you describe is not the result of incorrect modelling of Soviet tank behaviour. There must be reasons which you must avoid.

- Are your tanks buttoned-up

- What´s the crew quality

- Are they reloading (long reload times on the Russian biggies)

- What´s your overall force morale

- Does one Russian tank face numerous enemy threats at once

- Is the enemy moving fast so that your tanks have problems targetting

etc. etc. etc. I think the outcome of the thread I linked is that this behaviour is correct and not a bug or something. Change your strategy (see also the other threat currently on page one where ParaBellum has given some tips)!

In a current PBEM I have taken out approximately 10 German tanks (Jagdpanthers, Panthers, Tigers with four crack IS-2s) in engagements below 500m. I get my butt kicked elsewhere on the map but this is proof enough that what you describe is NOT happening always and everywhere but only in certain situations which you must seek to avoid.

As mentioned earlier Jägermeister is a pretty good scenario to better understand what´s going on. Check the Jägermeister AAR thread in the scenario talk forum.

Nolloff

[ February 03, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Nolloff ]

[Monty]

Thanks for changing your name to Major Disorder.

Monty

[Major Disorder]

Originally posted by Nolloff:

[QB] Don´t draw the wrong conclusions. What you describe is not the result of incorrect modelling of Soviet tank behaviour. There must be reasons which you must avoid.

- Are your tanks buttoned-up

No the Tank was opened up.

- What´s the crew quality

Crew quality was veteran.

- Are they reloading (long reload times on the

Russian biggies)

Nope the gun was loaded and ready to go

- What´s your overall force morale

At that particular point in the battle overall morale was 85%

- Does one Russian tank face numerous enemy

threats at once

No,this was a 1 on 1 situation,my tank even spotted the enemy tank first,but he just sat there and did nothing.

- Is the enemy moving fast so that your tanks have problems targetting

No,this one was moving slowly,he crossed in front of my tank in open ground and the range was about 500 mtrs,but once again my tank just sat there doing nothing

[Major Disorder]

Originally posted by Monty:

Thanks for changing your name to Major Disorder.

Ok,no problem.With hindsight i guess it was a bit insensitive of me.No hard feelings,ok

Monty

[Tarquelne]

No,this was a 1 on 1 situation,my tank even spotted the enemy tank first,but he just sat there and did nothing.

How do you know the tank had spotted the enemy tank - you had a targeting line?

[Redwolf]

Well, what about actually moving the tanks? Like in mud and snow. Now who has the crappy tanks?

The retreat TacAI behaviour is disturbing, but I guess some people already noticed I have a problem with it

Also disturbing is the drop-target mentality, losing LOS to a tank which didn't move from a tank which didn't move (at long range). Not realistic. And thereby losing all the zeroing in you gain from previous shots. Not realistic either, the zeroing in should be persistent as long as shooter and target don't change places. But in CMBB it is reset when the targetting is dropped no matter for what reason and where the next targetting appears.

[Major Disorder]

Originally posted by Tarqulene:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />No,this was a 1 on 1 situation,my tank even spotted the enemy tank first,but he just sat there and did nothing.

How do you know the tank had spotted the enemy tank - you had a targeting line? </font>

[Sripe]

Hi Major Disorder,

Just making sure your tank wasn't hidden...?

This game will dispel many preconceived myths, just hang in there !

Sripe

[Major Disorder]

Originally posted by Sripe:

Hi Major Disorder,

Just making sure your tank wasn't hidden...?

This game will dispel many preconceived myths, just hang in there !

I will.There's probably a knack to using Russian armour,I just don't appear to have it yet.I'm more used to CMBO,and it's a bit of a shock seeing your Tanks running away every chance they get,that's all.

Sripe

[Tarquelne]

my tank even spotted the enemy tank first,but he just sat there and did nothing.

If you're going by the targeting lines - not necessarily. The t. line display isn't always updated on time.

The turret of the T34 was even tracking him,

So it didn't do "nothing".

It sits there while the pnzr opens up,and misses.I think,good now i got him,but no,he still sits there.The pnzr fires again,result,front turret penetration and up she goes in a ball of fire.

...and was hit on the PzIII's second shot. The PzIII does have a faster ROF.

That's at 1900 mtrs with a 50mm gun,now that can't be right.Can It ?????

50L60? If it hits just the right spot, and you're unlucky - then yes, it can. Welcome to the eastern front. Your tanks, commrade, will often have more cleverly designed armor, bigger guns, better mobility, and still get beaten by the German panzers: Optics, C&C, ROF, numbers. Have some vodka and kick the commissar.

Bone_V:

tungsten

At that range AP will often penetrate better, according to the vehicle info. display. Lighter.

[ February 03, 2003, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]

[Bertram]

To put this in perspective (the tank bit that is) I just lost tw0 Panthers in two tuens to Russian T-34's (well , the fisrt at least, the seconfd opponent is only tentative id'ed at the moment).

The first was killed at approx 600 mtrs by 3 T-34's doing shoot-and-scoot, second hit killed it, no (known) counter kills. The second was killed by one (1!) shot at 1000+ mtrs, he didn't even see his opponent before getting killed. So, why are those damn Panthers so crappy when I use them?? :mad:

Bertram

[ichadwick]

Originally posted by Major Disorder:

Ok,I changed the name.If anyone was offended,then I appologise.

Thank you. You chose the higher ground.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by Bertram:

To put this in perspective (the tank bit that is) I just lost tw0 Panthers in two tuens to Russian T-34's (well , the fisrt at least, the seconfd opponent is only tentative id'ed at the moment).

The first was killed at approx 600 mtrs by 3 T-34's doing shoot-and-scoot, second hit killed it, no (known) counter kills. The second was killed by one (1!) shot at 1000+ mtrs, he didn't even see his opponent before getting killed. So, why are those damn Panthers so crappy when I use them?? :mad:

Bertram

Sorry about that Bertram. That second Panther was pure fluke! I'll take it however.

Regards

Jim R.

[CombinedArms]

I thought the reported PzIII kill of a T-34 at 1900m was a bit of a fluke. I suspected that a long PzIV might, on the other hand, rule in this context vs T-34s, so I did a test of 4 PzIII Ls and 4 PzIVGs vs. 8 T-34/76s (1943 model/late) on 8 separate test tracks on dead flat map.

The test lasted five turns and the T-34s acquited themselves quite well. There were no PzIII kills of T-34s.

Test Log:

1st round: No kills on either side. One T-34 shocked by partial penetration from a PzIVG.

2nd round. 2 T-34s KOed by PzIVGs. I PzIV abandoned, one gun damaged. I PzIII immoblized.

3rd round. No change.

4th round. No change.

5th round. Gun damaged PzIVG killed. Immoblized PzIII abandoned.

Total effect:

2 abandoned T-34s (both by PzIVGs)

6 T-34s Ok

========

1 abandoned PzIIIL

3 PzIIILs OK

--

2 dead PzIVs (1 abandoned, 1 KO)

2 PzIVs OK

Conclusions:

1. PzIIILs cannot easily kill T-34s at 1900m. None was killed in 5 turns of trying. Many, many bounced shots, but no kills.

2. The PzIIIL is also hard for the T-34 to kill at that range. It has pretty good armor vs. the 76mm gun and only one was killed in five turns--again, many bounced shots--and that a tank that survived from turns 2-4 immobilized before finally being abandoned by its crew.

3. PzIVGs and T-34s can kill each other more easily--the PzIVGs lighter armor but better gun makes it both deadlier and more vulnerable in its duels at that range with the T-34. Still, killing the PzIVG is a bit of a challenge for the T-34 at that range. A gun damaged one survived for several turns and only died on the 60th second of turn 5.

4. All in all, the T-34/76s won the encounter--killing three tanks and losing just two. It could have gone the other way, but it seems that the T-34 can hold its own in such situations.

[ February 03, 2003, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[SteppenWolf]

I don't think that russian tanks are crappy at all... like their german counterparts they have advantages and disadvantages and one just needs to use the right tank and tactic for the job...

For the Pz III vs T-34. The Pz III comes in 3 gun flavours if I remember right and the long 50 mm could very well score a lucky hit at this distance. The Pz III also has better optics and a higher rate of fire the then T-34, so this alone could explain why it fired first and more often. I don't know how exactly it works in CMBB but I would guess that better optics might also allow to get the first shot off faster since the crew might be more confident about their target solution earlier. Another aspect is crew quality.

I won multiple tank battles against human oponents playing the russians and I'm pretty happy with the JS-2 and T-34 performance in this battles.

Oh one final thing? Was the Pz III fully identified? Like yesterday I tried to take out a partly identified Pz IV just to find out one toasted JS-2 later that it was actually a Panther. The Panther then toasted another JS-2 before the overwatching 2nd JS-2 platoon could knock out the Panther.

SteppenWolf

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Judging by the way Major Disorder described that firefight at 1,900 metres and then the 2nd one involving the IS2, I have a fairly strong suspiscion that the Soviet tanks had a hide order in place in an attempt to reduce the chances of detection. Assuming Major Disorder is relatively new to the game he may not know that the game typically keeps AFV's on hide for far too long even when a threat appears in their sights. Once again, all guesswork on my part but I believe the result would have been very different if the respective Soviet tanks weren't hiding.

Of course, if Maj. Disorder confirms that his T34 & IS2 weren't given hide orders and is being true to his conscience, then I take all this back and please ignore as irrelevant.

Regards

Jim R.

[Mace]

Originally posted by SteppenWolf:

I don't think that russian tanks are crappy at all... like their german counterparts they have advantages and disadvantages and one just needs to use the right tank and tactic for the job...

One suggestion I'd give is to buy Soviet tanks in platoons, and work them as a platoon.

This makes up for any short comings.

Mace

[Redwolf]

CMBB units automatically cancel their hide orders when shot at, so that can't be it.

But - only if they see the shooter.

I think it is more likely that the T-34 didn't spot the Panzers due to worse optics. What was the weather in that battle?

[Major Disorder]

Originally posted by redwolf:

CMBB units automatically cancel their hide orders when shot at, so that can't be it.

But - only if they see the shooter.

I think it is more likely that the T-34 didn't spot the Panzers due to worse optics. What was the weather in that battle?

Weather was clear.Nothing obstructing the view either.

[zukkov]

Someone has the name username Zukkov in here. Zukkov "murdered" men by running them through known minefields to save time, so is that name alright?

you rang? lol.. anyway, names are just that. names. a lot of us chose names that are famous(for whatever reason) from ww2 or other wars. after reading the book "zhukov's greatest defeat" about operation mars, i think a bit less of the general than i used to. but in the end(of the war), he did succeed. anyway, i believe members shouldn't get overworked about a name another player might use. it doesn't mean he/she is a nazi, commie, or devil worshipper. it's just a name.

with regards to russian tanks being crappy, i think that is wrong. mostly it's just disillusionment(is that a word?) with the perception of what history has told us. i felt coming in to this game that the t34 was an early war tiger and was invulnerable to all but the german 88 during the first year of the war. this has proven not to be the case. does that mean it wasn't successful? of course not. it was a very good design(with flaws) and killed it's share of germany's tanks. but to be successful, you have to use it right. use it's speed to get up close and on the flanks/rear of the enemy tanks, etc.

this game is no different than any other good game. it's the skill of the player, not the equipment or even sheer numbers, that will carry the day. a lesson my namesake learned during Mars....

[Guest konrad]

and yes i want to say hello to Monty

and of course mom..

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Major Disorder:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf:

CMBB units automatically cancel their hide orders when shot at, so that can't be it.

But - only if they see the shooter.

I think it is more likely that the T-34 didn't spot the Panzers due to worse optics. What was the weather in that battle?

Weather was clear.Nothing obstructing the view either. </font>

[Guest konrad]

...its easy to check by simple experiment:

take garbage can,leave small area between can and cover open,

then ,when you turning around,try to lokalize targets in distance 1400 m.you can use binoculars of course

good luck

konrad

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by lenakonrad:

...its easy to check by simple experiment:

take garbage can,leave small area between can and cover open,

then ,when you turning around,try to lokalize targets in distance 1400 m.you can use binoculars of course

good luck

konrad

I am talking about the dropping of already spotted targets.