Bogdan Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Hi everybody, Is there a solution to represent tank trenches in CMBB ? Maybe with the editor ? This kind of fortification was, I think, widely used by germans in defensive battle... Have a look at this very interesting picture ! ...and read the article at Missing-Lynx.com Cheers ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jussi Köhler Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Cant you simulate it with a lowered marsh-tile? Should be unpassable for tanks. This would off course be done in the editor and the defender had no say in the setup where to place them unfortunately... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogdan Posted March 3, 2003 Author Share Posted March 3, 2003 Yes, of course it would be possible to simulate this sort of fortification with the editor. You can take marsh or rough but then : </font>The defender cannot set it like a trench or a minefield.</font>The attacker will localize immediatelly the trenches at the begginning of the battle. I'm not sure that these things were camouflaged but it may be. In an other hand, an advancing tank (buttoned up) will not see the obstacle very easely during combat ! </font> The better would be to use barricades but this is not a trap ! I mean, a tank will see and avoid it. On the contrary, with a tank trench, the vehicle will advance and fall into it because it didn't see the trap. So ? :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacheldraht Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 This kind of fortification was, I think, widely used by germansNot just the Germans, from what I've read. For the defense of Moscow, the government sent out thousands of civilians to dig anti-tank ditches like that around the city, iirc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogdan Posted March 3, 2003 Author Share Posted March 3, 2003 Originally posted by Stacheldraht: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />This kind of fortification was, I think, widely used by germansNot just the Germans, from what I've read. For the defense of Moscow, the government sent out thousands of civilians to dig anti-tank ditches like that around the city, iirc. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogdan Posted March 3, 2003 Author Share Posted March 3, 2003 ...Oh ! and what about that ? It would be nice if a modder could remplace barbed wire or something else by that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 How about butting bunch of heavy stone wall in there? Tanks can broke a trak whit then right? (To simulate the fact that they are not allways so well digged) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 The need for a player implaced tank ditch has never been met. However you can try some of these two rock walls with soft ground in between soft ground with two trenches side by side=more of a slower but tanks do get stuck if they try to go thru (sometimes!) obstacles or rubble, rough terrain etc. I always thought a trench modified into a tank ditch by selecting an opinion would be best. Oh well something to look forward to in CM3 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogdan Posted March 3, 2003 Author Share Posted March 3, 2003 Originally posted by Hans: I always thought a trench modified into a tank ditch by selecting an opinion would be best. Oh well something to look forward to in CM3 I think so . Many solutions exist in order to simulate this type of fortification. But these cannot be used during a setup phase. On the contrary, infantry trenches can... That's the problem. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industrializer Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 you can easily simulate tank trenches with lots of roadblocks. Just buy 50 at setup and you are able to build a formidable tank obstacle 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 I was about to recommend roadblocks myself! A woefully underused piece of equipment. Good way to funnel armor into anti-tank minefield, keep their tanks from getting good LOS on your troops. And very impressive looking if stretched from one side of a map to another! [ March 03, 2003, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: MikeyD ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogdan Posted March 3, 2003 Author Share Posted March 3, 2003 Originally posted by MikeyD: I was about to recommend roadblocks myself! A woefully underused piece of equipment. Good way to funnel armor into anti-tank minefield, keep their tanks from getting good LOS on your troops. And very impressive looking if stretched from one side of a map to another! Oh ! I see... ...you mean that ? But, I insist on the idea that a tank ditch is a trap... ...not only an obstacle : "...At night of March 13, 1944 the 2nd lieutenant A.V.Sivakov followed his regiment's route on his M4A2 and was informed about presence of enemy in Yavkino village. Nevertheless, he had decided to break through enemy's village and come up his regiment. On his tank he run into village with maximum speed and had opened fire. Showing an excellent experience he maneuvered in village, so Germans has thought about 10 Russian tanks in a village and quickly retreated. Next day the Germans have reinforced and launched a counter-attack. During the battle the M4A2 falled into the anti-tank ditch. After that the Germans approached and offered to surrender. However, Sivkov opened fire with a cry "Soviet Communists never surrendering!". About ten German soldiers were killed, the rest have retreated, but Sivkov opened fire with a antiaircraft machine-gun. When he run out of ammo he blowed up himself and his tank." Recommended: must be awarded the Hero of the Soviet Union. Commander of the 212th Independent Guards Tank Regiment, Guards Major Barbashin. ( web page ) In CMBB, barbed wire is automatically spotted by troops, roadblocks too. Reading this text, you can imagine that it's not prooved that the tank driver and/or commander (in the stress of the fight) could have seen the ditch. Cheers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 According to the rulebook infantry trenches increase teh chance of a tank bogging as it crosses them, so perhaps using several of those side my side (or indeed in parallel lines close to each otehr) would give the required effect? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flammenwerfer Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 77777747777 77777747777 77777747777 Using the editor, this type of elevation pattern(as an example)will create an anti-tank trench or gully. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Havermeyer- Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Just looking at the picture, is it less of an impassable object than a nice way to expose the underbelly of the AFV? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigrii Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 I can't believe no one has mentioned this: using normal inf. trenches as AT obstacles works almost exactly like an AT trench. Tanks crossing them go a lot slower and have a high bog chance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogdan Posted March 4, 2003 Author Share Posted March 4, 2003 Originally posted by Flammenwerfer: 77777747777 77777747777 77777747777 Using the editor, this type of elevation pattern(as an example)will create an anti-tank trench or gully. Hi, Effectivelly, I think the editor is the only way to properly create an antitank ditch/trench, using heights and/or different types of tiles (rough, marsh...). I don't know how exactly an infantry trench is modeled is CMBB (I mean depht for example, but also "bogging" capacity...) but, looking at the first picture I've found, a tank ditch is 2,5 meters deep. How deep is an infantry trench then ? Grognards could be helpfull there ! If these two fortification have "roughly" the same dimensions, then Ok : let's use trench for these two purposes : protect infantry, stop tanks. Cheers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Cook Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Originally posted by Flammenwerfer: 77777747777 77777747777 77777747777 Yes...? What is it? :cool: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogdan Posted March 4, 2003 Author Share Posted March 4, 2003 Originally posted by Cpt. Cook: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Flammenwerfer: 77777747777 77777747777 77777747777 Yes...? What is it? :cool: </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Originally posted by -Havermeyer-: Just looking at the picture, is it less of an impassable object than a nice way to expose the underbelly of the AFV? I was thinking the same thing. The tanks should be able to climb out of that ditch, assuming it has enough engine torque. And even if it doesn't end up immobilized, an At gun has plenty of time to have the tank zeroed, and impale it "by the gut" once the tank's climbing out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogdan Posted March 4, 2003 Author Share Posted March 4, 2003 Originally posted by Bone_Vulture: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by -Havermeyer-: Just looking at the picture, is it less of an impassable object than a nice way to expose the underbelly of the AFV? I was thinking the same thing. The tanks should be able to climb out of that ditch, assuming it has enough engine torque. And even if it doesn't end up immobilized, an At gun has plenty of time to have the tank zeroed, and impale it "by the gut" once the tank's climbing out. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Originally posted by Bogdan: It's a picture of the Maginot line, in France, taken in the 30's. Regards Impassable... Or not? :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Havermeyer- Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 That would be... bypassable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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