Stalingrad Scenario - Tanks vs. Infantry.

[Doctor Sinister]

Hello everyone.

First posting, new person here, been playing all three versions of CM for just a few weeks now after my friend finally persuaded me to get into it. We play CMAK over the net and I'm pleased to say I've beaten him a couple of times, but the last time he totally creamed me. I always play as the Germans. He has a fetish for playing as the US.

I digress...

I'm trying to create a very small scenario based on the scene in the 1993 film "Stalingrad" where some German Stormtroopers are facing off against 6 T-34s and some Russian Infantry. The Germans are dug in and have a 50mm ATG (I think, difficult to tell precisely) and the Tanks are advancing through a small chokepoint bordered by trees.

In the film, the Germans destroy all 6 tanks with a combination of magnetic mines, Molotov cocktails and fire from their ATG. I have no idea how realistic this is - perhaps if you've seen the film you'll know which bit I'm talking about.

I have deliberately weakened the Germans to reflect the position in the film - 2 split squads with heavy weapons sections (Anti-Tank) at the front, support sections to the rear and 50mm gun right at the back with the Platoon HQ in command range of everyone in the middle in a sort of triangular formation - all dug in.

Basically, my SOLE aim is to recreate as precisely as possible the scene in the film. Sad isn't it?

Trouble is, it's impossible to win! My gun sometimes knocks out a couple of the enemy tanks, but then gets blown up itself. The main problem is that I can't get the troops to stay put long enough to use their Anti-Tank weapons, they leg it as soon as they can - not that I blame them mind you, but I shall have stern words with them when we get out of this.

Erm, I'm sorry, I wandered off there for a moment.

In order to buy the Germans a little more time, I placed a small rise in the chokepoint so that the Russian tanks couldn't simply bombard the troops from afar - i.e. to try and recreate the close quarters combat in the film and get them all mixed in together - but despite being in range more often than not, the troops still won't use their Anti-Tank weapons.

So, my question is, how can I "persuade" them to do this? Any ideas or is it just a case of them using what they want to use, when they feel like it?

Regards,

Dr. S.

[BulletRat]

I'd say up the skill level of your Axis troops and maybe increase fanaticism?

Also make sure your German dudes are "hiding" in their foxholes with covered arcs. (I know it won't work vs a human player unless you have dummy foxholes for em to waste ammo on).

[Redwolf]

The Russian tanks in CM get the advantage that they get told the location of everything their infantry spots right away.

Historically they wouldn't see a thing after buttoning up.

The movie scene is not entirely realistic, BTW, there is no way for so few men to stand up to this attacker and the reason is that the Russians had some infantry accompanying the tanks.

[Michael Dorosh]

For a movie that wasn't made in the United States, Stalingrad was very "Hollywood".

I would also downgrade the quality of the Russian troops while you upgrade the German quality.

[zukkov]

sounds to me like you're describing the scenario "stalingrad the movie". i recently played that one. very good!

[zukkov]

welcome to the forum by the way!

[Doctor Sinister]

Has it already been done then? I somehow thought it might have been but couldn't find any mention in this forum. Where can I get a copy of this other version? Just to see how bad my own one is?!

Thanks for all the responses.

[JasonC]

1. I believe it is a 75mm PAK 40, though it has been a while since I watch the film. A gun much more likely to kill T-34s, incidentally. If you use a 50mm, you might give it some tungsten.

2. Make the German position a "reverse slope" one. Meaning treelines on the flanks and a dip in the ground in front block long LOS lines to the German positions. Or put the German infantry in a sort of "gully", a couple levels below the plain the T-34s are on.

3. Give the Germans tank hunter teams in addition to split squads. 2 of them, say.

4. Put the German infantry foxholes in scattered tree terrain. Yes I know in the film the ground looks pretty open. Realistically, infantry AT doesn't have a prayer against tanks in completely open ground in the snow. Any significant concealment, though, will prevent the tanks from spotting the foxholes before the infantry shows itself.

5. Have the German infantry hide with a short covered arc 180 degrees ahead. Like 30m.

6. The PAK should be farther back, with a covered arc over the whole opening, but about level with the arcs of the infantry. That way it will open up at about the same time.

7. Overall the film is certainly not an accurate portrayal of tactical conditions, and you should not expect a single depleted infantry platoon and 1 PAK to routinely defeat a company of medium tanks.

8. Infantry will not use their AT weapons while pinned. If they are under fire, they have essentially no chance to hit the tanks with such weapons. They will be under fire if they have already been spotted, unless there are more units than there are tanks near enough to see them. They will be spotted as soon as LOS is established, well before infantry AT weapon range, if they have no concealment beyond foxholes in the snow.

9. You can't make them use their infantry AT by any order you can give. You can only get them to use it by avoiding pinning fire, by avoiding spotting, by hiding in concealment terrain. If 4-6 units (counting tank hunters) can see 1-2 leading tanks (rest still out of LOS because of reverse slope) that will also help avoid pinning fire - the tanks won't be able to pin them all.

[ January 03, 2004, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Paco QNS]

Go to the Scenario depot

It is "Stalingrad the movie scene",

or "S. the movie" by Daniel Haeni.

It´s quite interesting, and reflects well the film. Against the AI, is winnable, BTW.

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Doctor Sinister:

Has it already been done then? I somehow thought it might have been but couldn't find any mention in this forum. Where can I get a copy of this other version? Just to see how bad my own one is?!

Thanks for all the responses.

I know of one that was done from the movie. It is called "Hourre Pobieda !" and it can be gotten from The Scenario Depot.

http://ns9.super-hosts.com/~dragonlair.net/combatmission/

I will warn you now you BETTER USE THE SNIPER!!!!!!!! This scenario can't be won without him! I know I tried it 8 times before emailing the designer!!! :mad: :mad:

But it is a learning experience for fighting tanks in open ground.

Another scenario that pits hand held AT Weapons against tanks is "K-2 Pyrrhic Victory" also found on the Scenario Depot.

Enjoy!!

Panther Commander

[ichadwick]

I too have found it difficult if not impossible to get infantry to use their AT even though I have been able to sneak them almost adjacent to a tank. Infantry told to assault a tank seldom (if ever) attack it as expected, and usually get seen, pinned or destroyed. Very annoying.

BTW, there's a similar scenario in Call of Duty... I've tried to replicate some of the situations in CoD as CMBB scenarios... it's difficult but fun...

[JasonC]

You do not need to give infantry orders to move on top of the tank. Doing so means leaving cover, or just being easier to spot because moving. Which draws fire, which pins, which prevents them from using their infantry AT weapons.

It is better to get the infantry to a covered location 20-30m away from the tank, and then remain stationary. They will attack, it just takes a bit of time. It looks like they are throwing things, but that is just how the game represents it visually. After a flying grenade or other similar object, you will see "hit" displayed over the tank.

[Joachim]

If you want a tank hunting plt, this plt needs a very good plan to kill 6 tanks accompanied by infantry.

a) It needs to strip the infantry from the tanks: Use a HMG a bit back to avoid early detection of your position

Spread your forward troops. The LMGs do the firing (and draw fire), while the rest remains hidden: Use separate LMGs (2-3).

c) You need any morale you can get. Split squads have less morale. Use 3-4 reduced squads (60-70%) instead of half squads. Buy several plts and check which one has the desired properties (number of SMGs and LMGs for each squad, HQ strength).

d) Make sure you use magnetic mines - much better than the ordinary Panzerwurfminen. They are available at least for the TH teams. Do not use rifle grenades for the squads. If magnetic mines are not available for them, use Panzerwurfminen (dunno the English translation for them)

Use the max amount of mines and grenade bundles for your troops.

e) Consider using pioneers - demo charge better than grenade bundle, smaller squads.

f) As already said - Tungsten for the 50mm or use a 75mm - and set it up a bit back... Of course a movie will prefer explosions all over the same place. Your plt will prefer explosions as far apart as possible.

A 37mm PaK (!) with several muzzle-loaded HEAT rounds will do fine, too. On short distances it rocks. Spotting it is harder. This might negate some borg spotting effects.

g) Consider using an additional plt/section HQ for the hvy weapons in the rear

h) Give big boni to the HQs! Stealth, morale, combat. Maybe even command to allow spreading your troops. They'll need it.

i) IIRC it was a penal btn and not stormtroopers.

j) Use brush or small dips for concealment.

k) Consider using trenches. A Pak in a trench behind a small crest or a wall is a tough nut too crack. Trenches give good cover. Using several of them will not allow a human Soviet player to shell suspected positions effectively.

l) Reduce the canister load of the T34s

If you like scenarios like that, try GD Romanian Defence from Michael Dorosh.

Gruß

Joachim