CMBB player with some CMBO questions.

[laxx]

Hi, i started out in CMBO and CMBB. I am a reasonable player on German forces and genreal afv usage (I like the Hetzer best together with the Nashorn in a keyhole manner). I have started playing the allies but i have alot of questions.

This is a quick question thread as I am playing against my friend in CMBO PBEM.

Can someone tell me:

* How to win M1A1 against the Panther ? Do the rules of CMBB T-34 apply to the sherman ?

* Is there an equivalent of the T-34/85 in CMBO ?

* Can I use the M10 like a StuG IIIg ? ie. Flank, Rear shot. Short range than long range. I noticed that it kills panthers.

* VC, Cromwell, Firefly etc. What is the story with these tanks ? are they unique in any way ?

* lastly i played a scenario in CMBO in which 12 shermans were lost to 3 panthers (elite). What do you think could have helped to make it easier to win ? some of the ideas i have which are not tested out: (a) tank rush ( better coordination with Troops. © keyholeing ?

thanks

[ May 20, 2003, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: laxx ]

[Sergei]

Originally posted by laxx:

Can someone tell me:

* How to win M1A1 against the Panther ?

Well, you could use some 120mm SABOT to begin with.

OTOH, if I had M4 Sherman instead of Abrams, I'd use smoke and then try to maneuver so that I could hit the soft flanks of that beast.

[laxx]

dang...my ignorance on US/UK tanks is glaring.

[klapton]

>How to win M1A1 against the Panther ?

With numbers; try to outflank it.

>Do the rules of CMBB T-34 apply to the sherman ?

Which rules are those?

>* Is there an equivalent of the T-34/85 in CMBO ?

Equivalent to exactly what? Americans have Sherman Jumbos, which are well armoured. And those afv with the 76 mm gun should be feared.

>* Can I use the M10 like a StuG IIIg ? ie. >Flank, Rear shot. Short range than long range. I >noticed that it kills panthers.

The M10 may come with a few tungsten rounds, which will kill big cats easily, specially tigers.

>* VC, Cromwell, Firefly etc. What is the story >with these tanks ? are they unique in any way ?

Firefly is a sherman with a 17 pdr gun, which is a good anti-tank weapon. The cromwell does not have any special feature, apart from being one of

the most numerous afv in british service.

* lastly i played a scenario in CMBO in which 12 shermans were lost to 3 panthers (elite). What do you think could have helped to make it easier to win ? some of the ideas i have which are not tested out: (a) tank rush ( better coordination with Troops. © keyholeing ?

Go for its flanks. In fact, even a Stuart can kill a Panther from the flank.

You may try also the M18. Thin armour, but good 76 mm gun.

Have in mind that in CMBO, Germans do not have the advantage of superior optics, so Allies are not at a great disadvantage at long ranges.

[Slappy]

Armor in CMBO is not nearly as different from CMBB as infantry. Most of the changes were to infantry morale and movement orders (note I said most). The real differences are lack of optics modeling (not usually a difference though as denser foliage on the western front will generally keep engagement ranges to well below 1000m), lack of vehicle crew morale (actually a plus here as your allied vehicles will valiantly charge those german heavies in the face of near certain death) and the obvious differences in tools that the allies have available.

The base or 75mm armed shermans are, essentially, like a T-34/76 in this case. They can kill from the side, but not the front. If you search you will find innumerable threads telling you that you have to get to the rear/flank and use the germans slow turrets to your advantage to do so. Smoke (with shorter west front time to target) works pretty well here too.

If you want a chance to take them down from the front you have several choices:

The Firefly is very popular. It comes with the excellent 17lb gun which can take down even a tiger from the front at close range. At the same time, you'll lose some infantry support capability and get no more armor (essentially)than with a base sherman. This is probably the closest equivalent to the T-34/85 in the west.

The US M-10/M-18 are also up gunned and quite fast, but have very light armor. Sniping, keyholing and flanking are extremely important for these vehicles. Think of them as a SU-85 with a fast turret.

There are a variety of more exotic vehicles, but I'll let others chime in with their favorites.

/* edited to make more sense */

[ May 28, 2003, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Slappy ]

[Redwolf]

The M10 is actually dog slow, especially the turret.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

I would say the most direct equivalent to the T34/85 in CMBO terms would be the 76mm armed Shermans as their guns are able to penetrate the Tiger and occasionally the Panther from front on but you will need to be pretty close. The equivalent of the normal 75mm armed Shermans is, of course, the T34/76.

As far as British equipment is concerned, the T34/76 equivalent for them is the Cromwell while the T34/85 equivalent is the Comet with its cut down 17 pdr gun (oficially referred to as 77mm although it had exactly the same diameter shell as the true 17pdr. gun). In fact the Comet can pretty reliably take down the Tiger and Panther from the frotal aspect at ranges exceeding 500 metres or more. Just make sure you get the first accurate shot in that's all.

Regards

Jim R.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by laxx:

* How to win M1A1 against the Panther ? Do the rules of CMBB T-34 apply to the sherman ?

As others had said, side shots, if you mean M4 Shermans.

Also pay attention to the exact model in question. Shermans come in different gun versions and they come in different suspension versions. The normal suspension models are generally very slow, especially in difficult ground. The HVSS models are just the opposite, they are especially good.

* Is there an equivalent of the T-34/85 in CMBO ?

No. The T-34/85 in CMBB has a gun with good enough penetration to KO a Panthers (once they get APBC ammo), has a large HE blast value. It has two machineguns which work in CMBB but don't in CMBO.

All T-34 are also especially mobile. The front has decent resistence against 75mm L/48.

The closest replacement is a 95mm Cromwell. Its HC charge does decent damage against the cats. It is very fast, even in difficult ground. Due to CMBO anormalies the hit probablities while moving fast are pretty good, certainly better than the standing shooter trying to nail the fast mover if the standing tank has no or a slow turret. Obviously, the HE blast value is decent.

I lost it with the rest of your questions...

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann:

I would say the most direct equivalent to the T34/85 in CMBO terms would be the 76mm armed Shermans as their guns are able to penetrate the Tiger and occasionally the Panther from front on but you will need to be pretty close. The equivalent of the normal 75mm armed Shermans is, of course, the T34/76.

As far as British equipment is concerned, the T34/76 equivalent for them is the Cromwell while the T34/85 equivalent is the Comet with its cut down 17 pdr gun (oficially referred to as 77mm although it had exactly the same diameter shell as the true 17pdr. gun). In fact the Comet can pretty reliably take down the Tiger and Panther from the frotal aspect at ranges exceeding 500 metres or more. Just make sure you get the first accurate shot in that's all.

Regards

Jim R.

KR has all of this right. To amplify a bit, the 17 pdr. gun is the best British ATG. It will kill anything up to a KT reliably from the front. Can kill KTs frontally with tungsten, but it's iffy. The problem with the Firefly is that it is just as vulnerable as any vanilla Sherman to counter fire. It can go head to head against Tigers and Panthers, but can be easily killed by PzIVs, so I tend to try to isolate them on the bigger German tanks and fight the PzIVs with vanilla models.

The best Ami ATG is the 90mm, found on the Jackson TD and the (rare) Pershing. The Jackson is actually a pretty good buy. The M10 isn't quite like a Stug, because it's frontal armor is much more vulnerable. The 76mm gun is pretty Ok but not as lethal as the 17pdr. It's iffy against both Panther and Tiger frontal armor, but will sometimes get a kill.

Regarding the question about T34 rules, I think it's basically true that you can fight a vanilla Sherman (short 75) like a T34/76 and a Sherm 76 like a T34/85. A couple of differences: the Sherm 75 has slightly better penetrating power than the T34/76 and matches up better head to head vs. StugIIIGs and PzIVs. It's a big more bog prone, though. The Sherm 76 has a bit less frontal armor than the T34/85. And the Shermans can fire smoke, so that really helps with manuevering for flank shots. The Firefly is different. It can kill just about anything with its great gun, so you can try to isolate it on a Tiger or Panther.

One thing about Cromwells. The 95mm armed Cromwells are excellent tanks--fast, cheap and the 95mm gun can kill a Panther or Tiger at short range with the c round, even frontally, and the big HE charge murders infantry. They're lightly armored, but one of the best all around Allied tank buys. I also like the Firefly, Churchill VIII, Comet and Challenger as tank buys, and the Archer (rear firing 17pder) can be quite lethal in a defensive role if you learn how to us it (drive in reverse to attack). The Brits have some good armored options. The US problem is that most of the 76mm armed Shermans are overpriced relative to fighting ability. For some reason, BFC makes you pay a fortune for each little Sherman improvement in CMBO.

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by laxx:

* Is there an equivalent of the T-34/85 in CMBO ?

Yes, the 76mm variants of the Sherman. While not quite as fast as a T34, they still have the balance between armor, firepower, and speed. The 76mm gun does fairly well against the big german cats frontally and can take any of them with a flank shot. Not my personal favorite, but still a good tank {I prefer just a plain vanilla sherman 75}.

Originally posted by laxx:

* Can I use the M10 like a StuG IIIg?

In a way yes. If you want a true shoot and scoot tank go with the hellcat. The StuG's strength was from its armor while firing hull down before the Russian 85mm's showed up. The M10 does not have that luxury. But it makes for a good, cheap tank killer {but I would personally go with a Sherman 75 over it}.

Chad

[lcm1947]

Ok,OK what is keyholing mean? I'v seen it several times now and better find out what it means. Anybody?

[Richie]

I think it refers to tucking your armor away with a narrow field of fire, kind of like bore sighting, waiting for enemy AFVs to meander across your path. Sniping with tanks???

[Slappy]

Keyholing is placing armor/guns in a place where they can see/shoot through only a very narrow alley of terrain (between two hills or patches of woods). They are essentially 'peeking through the keyhole' at the enemy.

The advantage is that this tends to isolate them in 1 on 1 duels or snipes, rather than exposing them to the entire enemy force. This is particularly useful for armor with big guns and little armor. It lets them get off the first shot against one or two enemy vehicles without exposing them to fire from dozens.

The downside, particularly with ATGs is that if no one walks into the LOS, they're useless. Armor can be maneuvered to a new spot if the enemy chooses another lane of advance.

[lcm1947]

Oh that's what keyholing is. Thanks for the info guys. Yeah it would be kind of wastefull if something didn't come by and your gun crew just sat there smoking or napping.

[JasonC]

Most of the subject has already been covered one way or another, but I thought I'd give my two cents.

On keyholing and uselessness when enemies don't wander by, it is easy to look at it that way if you think about just one keyholed shooter. But criss cross the keyhole sight "lanes" of four of them and it looks rather different. To approach you, the enemy has to cross several lanes. If he doesn't enter *any* lanes it is because he left you all the flags. If he does advance and doesn't enter gun one's lane, it is because he entered gun two's lane.

One keyholer is weak because his LOS total is limited. Two or more can be much stronger, even covering only a limited portion of the whole enemy side between them, because they "cut" the field into "danger lanes" and "safe boxes". All the guys in safe boxes can't see any of them. But to get from one to another, they have to cross the danger lanes - typically one at a time.

On western armor, you get eggshells with hammers mixed with eggshells with HE chuckers. The eggshells with hammers are the AT shooters - US tank destroyers, British Fireflies and Challengers, that sort of thing. The eggshells with HE chuckers are short 75 Shermans and Cromwells. All are thinly armored compared to the highly capable German guns all over the place.

The closest thing to the balanced T-34/85 is the Easy Eight Sherman - the 76mm armed M4A3E8. The E8 gives improved flotation and thus cross country ability without bogging. It is a fast tank, the gun kills anything from the sides at range, and can kill most critters even from the front with tungten ammo, or close enough range.

The British Sherman Firefly is in the same league. The gun is better, but it only gets HE ammo in the fall - the early ones are pure AP, meant to operate 1 per platoon with 75mm tanks shooting mostly HE.

The StuG and Panzer IV are poorly protected against everything, compared to the Russian front. The StuG front fails against US 75s at medium range. Even US 37mm can kill the Pz IV through the turret front at about 500m. The CMBO equivalent of thick fronted StuGs are the highly sloped armor of the Hetzer and Jagdpanzer. Those easily bounce short 75 rounds from the front, killing with their replies. The flanks are vunerable, same as StuGs, so long range or keyhole sighting are used. Hetzers are very cheap as well.

Tiger Is are poorly protected against upgunned shooters, compared to their heyday in Russia. They are still monsters against 75mm tanks, and can still kill anything they run across. But all the TDs, Fireflies, 76mm Shermans etc can kill them from the front. The Panther turret front is vunerable to US 76mm with plain AP at about 200m. Tungsten, US 90mm, or the Brit 17 pdr will kill it at longer, more practical ranges. The front hull glacis is still good.

One quirk with upgunned Allied AT shooters is the way tungsten ammo is used. T ammo makes only a marginal difference from the typical Russian shot, while it makes a huge difference for the US 76mm. The critical variable is having a *full* ID of the target, with no "?" following the name of the vehicle you are shooting at. They will use T ammo properly if they need it and have it, if and only if they have a full ID. Otherwise they can get themselves killed bouncing plain AP from a superior opponent, while T ammo sits unused. So before springing the AT shooter from cover, make sure the men (not just you) know exactly what critter they will be facing.

Tank command is much more forgiving in CMBO. Delays are short, orders can be arbitrarily complicated, there are no morale or radio range for command problems. This lets you use split up teamwork tactics much more easily than in CMBB. So where early T-34s must maneuver simply and by platoons, Shermans and TDs can "dance". This matters a lot for taking on the thicker German armor.

You don't need to run to close range against most enemies with the typical Allied vehicle mix. It is instead a matter of lining up the high powered shooter for a shot at a distacted critter, or getting a flank shot at any range. Closing is necessary just to widen the angle of threat, to get a flank. In practice that means 500m is often close enough.

The only things really thick on the sides are the Tigers. But those can be handled with an upgunned shooter. Conceivably, if you have to take one out with just 75mm tanks, you might need to charge to close on the flanks as you would with T-34/76s. But that is a distant fall back position for the Allies, not a standard procedure.

The best US TD is the Jackson. It has a fast turret and its 90mm gun kills anything. It also packs a sizable HE wallop, though the HE ammo supply is quite limited. It is cheap, as cheap as a vanilla 75mm Sherman. The Hellcat has a gyrostabilizer too and is very fast, needs T ammo against critters but usually has it, but is also so thin even light German guns can take it out. Its Achilles heel is the hidden gun with LOS to its flanking run. M10s are the poor or early TD, needing T ammo to be truly effective against critters and with a slow turret.

The US is usually better off with a mix of TDs to kill armor and plain 75mm Shermans to do distraction and bait work, then kill infantry later with their multiple MGs and huge HE load. The 76mm Sherman "all in one" idea does not work as well, because each tank is far more expensive while still being quite vunerable.

The up armored versions (W+) will bounce things from their hulls, but only the true Jumbo is safe from turret hits as well. The plain W armor (also found on the Easy Eight) is good against 75L48 only, and only at 1000m or so. Investing in thicker armor is not the way to win with the Americans, though. Teamwork and clever TD hunting is, with "afforable" 100-125 cost AFVs.

For the Brits, they have Fireflies for the AT shooter role instead of TDs. They can also use the Achilles TD once it is available, or the Challenger. The strong point of the Cromwell compared to the Sherman is its speed - some have 40 mph top speed. No 50 cal and a smaller HE load, though. The better Churchills (VII and VIII) are thick enough to bounce most German AP, like Jumbos.

The 95mm Brit tanks are a gamey favorite, as their 95mm HEAT can kill tanks and the HE clobbers infantry. The low velocity gun is more accurate than it probably should be. The Brits can be better off with mostly 150 point tank varieties, because what they get for the extra money is actually worth it (17 pdrs, Churchill thickness, 95mm HE, etc).

Finally, two semi gamey points about CMBO armor wars as the Allies. The Brits have the Wasp, an effective cheap flame vehicle, and the US has the M8HMC, a cheap 75mm howitzer on a Stuart chassis. Both can be overused because they are so inexpensive, and give considerable bang for the buck. (Leading to the dreaded if slightly silly "HMC horde" tactic). If you only take a couple of them and not in every fight, though, they are useful auxiliaries.

I hope this helps.

[ June 01, 2003, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]