Soddball Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Just a quick example which made me puzzled. I was playtesting a new scenario and had a radio spotter in a truck. The truck was zipping across open terrain when it was suddenly struck by a fat 75mm HE shell from a StuG over 2km away. Because I designed the scenario, I know for certain that the closest enemy units are 1,700m away. Granted, Borg Spotting might influence this, but the StuG ignored the very visible T34/85s less than 500m away to target the spotter in a truck 2,100m away. :eek: Fix, etc.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Maybe the "wonder TC" Michael Wittman was in the Stug ?? Monty 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Just like the TacAI targetting (tank) HQs or more experienced troops (read: more expensive troops) first. Somebody said the most threatening enemy would be targetted, but tests showed that a crack AC in the rear was targetted, while regular ACs unmolestedly drove towards the ATG. Guess those bugs have the same reason. TacAI firing routine knows the stats while it shouldn't know them. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooz Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 This is just one of many perks the AI seems to give itself. I wonder if this is done to allow the AI to put up a good fight. AI tanks are snipers, HQ tanks ALWAYS bog first--or get that all too common "Gun Damage" result. I have also noticed how AI artillery NEVER MISSES! I tried this with the Kiev op playtest (which is pretty tough!). I set my infantry to the right, the armor to the left. Yep, AI barrage hits the infantry. I then try moving things around, even keeping units well to the rear--and out of any possible line of sight. It doesn't matter, the arty always found my squads. In another playtest, my FOs are in a locked set up. Turn two, here comes the AI arty, there goes my fire missions, and of course the broken/routed FOs sneak off the board edge. In all consideration, I think this is just an edge given to the AI to make the games more challenging. One advantage the human player always has is that we can just quit the scenario, and start the scenario again--this time knowing where the AI has placed his troops. I don't cheat and look at the AI OB before a scenario, but I will quit it and restart one if I'm getting clobbered and taking the heat. It is just a game--I keep telling myself this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Björn Eriksson Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 I guess we have different AIs then, because I have seen the AI miss with artillery strikes several times. Try using the WITHDRAW command as soon as you see a spotting round falling close to your troops. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Originally posted by tooz: In all consideration, I think this is just an edge given to the AI to make the games more challenging.BFC has repeatedly sworn on a stack of C++ manuals that the AI doesn't cheat, that it plays by exactly the same rules as the human player. Whether there might be a wormhole through which information might leak unbeknownst to the designers is not for me to say. But I will point out that because of the probabilistic way things run in CM, unlikely things are quite possible. What that means in the present case is that though it might look like something is going on, all that's really happening is that your nickel came up tails four times in a row. Keep playing and you may well witness the pattern you are now seeing vanish like the Cheshire's smile. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukkov Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 i'm with bjorn on this one. you conspiracy theorists always seem to think the ai has some cheat that gives it an advantage. there's always a tank of the grassy knoll(gnoll? nole? whatever. notice how the turret goes back and to the left.. ahem, anyway). i wonder how often the bfc crew must chuckle at some of the "observations" of the players of this fine game. then again, maybe that's what they want me to think! :eek: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 And we stand by what we have sworn. The TacAI is exactly the same for the computer player as for the human player. HQ tanks are *slightly* favored for targetting, as are FO's. It's those big antennas on the tanks and the guys sticking out giving flag signals and/or the guys with the large rolls of wire and the scissor type binoculars that give it away Martin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted July 9, 2003 Author Share Posted July 9, 2003 Originally posted by Moon: And we stand by what we have sworn. The TacAI is exactly the same for the computer player as for the human player. HQ tanks are *slightly* favored for targetting, as are FO's. It's those big antennas on the tanks and the guys sticking out giving flag signals and/or the guys with the large rolls of wire and the scissor type binoculars that give it away Martin I don't remember saying anything about AI cheats? My grumble is with something totally different, honest - like how a tank 2km away can spot that an infantry unit in the back of a truck is an artillery spotter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 The AI as in programmed opponent does not cheat, it is the TacAI that causes this behaviour, but it does it in identical ways for the PO and for the human player. What happens is that when the TacAI (not the PO) spots several enemy units it makes a decision which to target. It will target the most valuable enemy unit - and here is the catch - the value of the units is magically told. The TacAI target selection is always driven by the unit price, which it is told bespite fog of war. It is the same phaenomenon as with the planes always targetting the HQ tank. The TacAI knows the order of point value for all targets in sight of that single unit. Again: it is not the programmed opponent who magically knows the values. It is only the tiny little TacAI decision maker for that single unit, not for the whole force and not for the player or PO. Such a unit controlled by a human player will have exactly the same advantage. The player owning the unit will never be told. [ July 09, 2003, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: redwolf ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beta1 Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 The truck v tanks thing couldnt simply be down to kill percentages. Does a StuG have much chance of killing a T34/85 at 500m (I have no idea off the top of my head) On the other hand it will have a very good chance of KOing a truck at any range. So maybe it went for the easiest kill. Now whether its smart for the AI to reveal its stug to kill a truck when theres lots of T34/85s around is another matter entirely 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Originally posted by Soddball: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Moon: And we stand by what we have sworn. The TacAI is exactly the same for the computer player as for the human player. HQ tanks are *slightly* favored for targetting, as are FO's. It's those big antennas on the tanks and the guys sticking out giving flag signals and/or the guys with the large rolls of wire and the scissor type binoculars that give it away Martin I don't remember saying anything about AI cheats? My grumble is with something totally different, honest - like how a tank 2km away can spot that an infantry unit in the back of a truck is an artillery spotter. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted July 9, 2003 Author Share Posted July 9, 2003 Originally posted by Moon: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Soddball: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Moon: And we stand by what we have sworn. The TacAI is exactly the same for the computer player as for the human player. HQ tanks are *slightly* favored for targetting, as are FO's. It's those big antennas on the tanks and the guys sticking out giving flag signals and/or the guys with the large rolls of wire and the scissor type binoculars that give it away Martin I don't remember saying anything about AI cheats? My grumble is with something totally different, honest - like how a tank 2km away can spot that an infantry unit in the back of a truck is an artillery spotter. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Yes, I am telling you that. And I can come up with a host of real-life explanations for such a situation. The StuG might have never seen the T-34 at 500m because it was in a dead spot of the commander's cupola for example. In fact, the tank TacAI has a random function "built in" to simulate the limited field of view and situational awareness, and sometimes this causes units to react to enemy threats - even if otherwise spotted - with a delay. And an arty observer team isn't "some people", but it's people with a lot of quite bulky equipment that isn't all that easy to hide (or at least it takes preparation to do so). In the example with the conscript HQ - I can very well imagine a conscript unit to be able to deduct what a bunch of antennas or large rolls of wire mean than to identify the type of a moving enemy vehicle they've probably never seen before. Martin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Martin- Is there anything factored into such spotting occurrences to reflect canvas topped, i.e., not open flatbed transport? -dale [ July 09, 2003, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: dalem ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted July 9, 2003 Author Share Posted July 9, 2003 If this is the case, then why did neither the StuG nor the Conscript HQ successfully identify the 'artillery spotter' who wasn't in a vehicle? At 2km, the HQ successfully spotted and ID'ed the spotter in the truck. At 1.5km, the HQ successfully spotted and ID'ed both the jeep and the spotter in the jeep. Down to 800m the HQ failed to identify any other units, including a machine gun, a flamethrower, a mortar and (most importantly) a radio spotter with his huge flags, enormous antenna and whatnot. However, the HQ did manage to spot "Infantry Sounds" in the back of the halftrack at 1.5km, which I found most impressive. Something isn't right here, and I don't believe that any amount of naysaying will prove otherwise. If spotters are so visible, why are they so visible in a truck and not when walking along the ground? Let me reiterate. These are all radio spotters - no wires, no flags. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoot Me_I Explode Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Gota love those German optics hay... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_the_wino Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Hey Soddy, maybe your computer is punishing you for creating "Cheery Waffles", both the thread and the scenario. Lord knows I have included you in my prayers as of late. Unfortunately, no meteors have struck that block of wood perched above your torso. [ July 09, 2003, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: mike_the_wino ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Originally posted by Soddball: If this is the case, then why did neither the StuG nor the Conscript HQ successfully identify the 'artillery spotter' who wasn't in a vehicle? At 2km, the HQ successfully spotted and ID'ed the spotter in the truck. At 1.5km, the HQ successfully spotted and ID'ed both the jeep and the spotter in the jeep. Down to 800m the HQ failed to identify any other units, including a machine gun, a flamethrower, a mortar and (most importantly) a radio spotter with his huge flags, enormous antenna and whatnot. However, the HQ did manage to spot "Infantry Sounds" in the back of the halftrack at 1.5km, which I found most impressive. Something isn't right here, and I don't believe that any amount of naysaying will prove otherwise. If spotters are so visible, why are they so visible in a truck and not when walking along the ground? Let me reiterate. These are all radio spotters - no wires, no flags. Does the StuG have "narrow" optics by chance? Narrow field of view does make spotting objects closer to you but outside of the viewing arc harder. Same applies basically to "high magnification optics", though less drastically. My point is that tactical awareness on the battlefield is not absolute, and in the heat of battle things which are in plain view might go unspotted. I'll be the first one to admit that there's a bug if there is one, but so far what you are writing doesn't seem conclusive to me. Martin BTW, even radio spotters have a lot more equipment with them than a Vietnam style backpack radio, I'm sure you know that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 What about enclosed transport though? -dale 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooz Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 This just in...Playing "The Byeli Road" with mucho tanks in deep snow (I thought that the "Christie suspension", low ground pressure, and wider tracks of the T-34 minimized the chances of bogging). I have many five platoons of tanks. Four are bogged (three of which IMMEDIATELY became immobilized and will now sit out the rest of the scenario in comfort--out of LOS of any German unit), three of these bogged/immobilized tanks are HQ tanks. Nothing slower than out of command Russian tanks. Okay, so I am the unluckiest player in the world? Well, I think I have found a solution--I'll just drink more beer and maybe a few shots of tequila while playing. (Burp!) Ah, that's better! So, to avoid the frustrations involved with out-of-command tanks I am sending these guys out to be anti-tank spotters. Ka-boom! Look there's a gun over there...Ka-boom! Look, there's another ATG over there... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooz Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 Oh, NOW I UNDERSTAND! My HQ tanks are bogging/immobilizing on all of those snow-covered GRASSY KNOLLS!(just kidding) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFJaykey Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 Originally posted by tooz: This just in...Playing "The Byeli Road" with mucho tanks in deep snow (I thought that the "Christie suspension", low ground pressure, and wider tracks of the T-34 minimized the chances of bogging)......Well, I think I have found a solution--I'll just drink more beer and maybe a few shots of tequila while playing. (Burp!) Ah, that's better! Now you're on the right track....except that when I wrote the scenario, the beer was chasing bourbon.... The deep snow does make that one tough on the Russians. I'm thinking about changing from deep to regular snow for v2.0. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 [ July 09, 2003, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: V ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted July 10, 2003 Author Share Posted July 10, 2003 Originally posted by Moon: Does the StuG have "narrow" optics by chance? Narrow field of view does make spotting objects closer to you but outside of the viewing arc harder. Same applies basically to "high magnification optics", though less drastically. My point is that tactical awareness on the battlefield is not absolute, and in the heat of battle things which are in plain view might go unspotted. I'll be the first one to admit that there's a bug if there is one, but so far what you are writing doesn't seem conclusive to me. Martin BTW, even radio spotters have a lot more equipment with them than a Vietnam style backpack radio, I'm sure you know that. StuG optics are irrelevant. I ran and reran the test with a platoon HQ, and the same occurrence cropped up. "Heat of Battle" is also irrelevant, since the same thing occurs each time. If you want, I will email the test scenario to you. Run it Hotseat, and 'move' all the Russian units 2000m towards the flag. You'll see exactly what I described: The Radio artillery spotter in the truck is identified first, by a long way. The Radio artillery spotter in the jeep is identified second. The Radio artillery spotter in the halftrack appears as "infantry sounds?" for about 1.5km The Radio artillery spotter who is walking appears as "infantry?", the same as all the other 'infantry' units. If this is 'how the game is supposed to work', then please could you explain how an artillery spotter is successfully ID'ed in a truck at 2km, but in a jeep (which, to the best of my knowledge, is not all sheltered and cosy) for another 500m? Furthermore, why doesn't the conscript platoon HQ successfully ID the walking spotter? I remain unconvinced by your arguments, Moon - I believe that you are clutching at straws to explain a phenomena which simply should not occur. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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