Building a 1000 point soviet list....

[ErikinWest]

Me and my friends always do 1000 point battles for our PBEM/Online games. I am always the soviets and I am running into a lot of difficulty lately. We play with rarity on and off so i can ask for what i want.

My friends always choose the german army usually take a platoon of Pz4's. They are really tough! They have about equal armor and have a better gun. Whenever i take a SU-152 they always seem to get a shot off before it has a chance to fire. Then even if does shoot he seems to have 4 locks on my tanks. T-34 seem to be easily destroyed. My only successful tanks have been t-70's!

I was just wondering if people could help me with a versatile force. It should a bit more of AT since my friends like tanks. I just need your help to stop the German war machine!

[Pzman]

Try SU-85Ms or SU-100.The ISUs are also better.

[Mad Russian]

What time period are you playing and what PzIV's are they picking?

[ErikinWest]

Right sorry forgot the time period. 1943 - usually june to august.

[Zalgiris 1410]

I gather that you are playing armour only meeting engagements of 1000 with no point differences, if not I advise you as the Russians to spend any remaining points on 75mm F-22 (L/51) Guns, good high velosity AT potential.

I've been playing a few tests of these kind of 1000 point QBs since reading of your difficulties ErikinWest, and I have had quite some success as the Russians. I have played against crack PzIVH platoons and sometimes given them ATGs with their left over points, though with rairity I got a platoon of crack Tigers for less than a thousand. (You sure that your opponent is sticking with PzIVs only?) Bear in mind also that just one Tiger can alone change the balance quite significantly. Against them you are best having SU-152s.

That said as for going against a platoon of PzIVs as the Russians I have done quite well, that is win with 3 platoons of veteran T-34 43(late) each for 332 points with rairity. I genarally lost over half of them, some with damaged guns which is not a complete loss and they can still be used as decoys of course. I noticed that the Germans spotted my tanks quicker than mine did theirs even when I was stationary and waiting for them with a covered ark! That seems to be the main problem that I had going up against them, they knock out my guys before my guys fire effectively at them. I found the extra numbers are the main answer in this dual, so obviously getting more of your tanks firing at less Panzers at one time helps. I was using the best tactics AFAIK and I have actually had a bit of fun doing it. FIGJAM! Use covered arks, concentration, overwatch, hunting, shooting and scooting (the best trick with this is having your tanks bobbing up and down in different locations forcing the Panzers to keep rotating to different targets without getting locked on to one to kill while having any of yours not in danger take the Panzers out!), hiding in cover and behind buildings, hull down, creast line and reverse slope firing positions, etc.

Therefore I suggest imporving your tactics as best you can by reading other threads if necessary but however the main thing is to bare in mind the poorer spotting performance of Russian AFVs at this time. This means that they are fighting at a distinct disadvantage. You could start playing in a different time frame or have more points going the Russians against your opponent, if they are willing. Best of CM luck.

[Bonxa]

You can also get oodles of SU76M for 1000 points. They pack the same punch as the T-34 but without a turret. Their armor is just as vulnerable as that of the T-34 to long 75 mm guns. Could be fun to surprise your opponent sometime with 12 or 16 of those little puppies.

Just watch out for light AT and AA assets.

I just tried your setup with 9xDP LMG, 12xSU-76M and 2xSU-152. The krauts had 5xPzIVH, 1xInf Plt, 1xPAK-40 and 1xPAK-38. Allies all regular and Axis all veteran. Terrain was village, moderate trees and gentle slopes. Engagement ranges around 500 meters.

I started out with losing 4 SU-76M to the PAK-40.

But then the PzIV wandered into murdering fire from groups of 4 SU-76M and one SU-152. Didn't lose a single vehicle to his five tanks. It should be taken into account that this was vs the AI but then again I was rather sloppy too.

[anteportas]

You could also buy some KV-1 with 100mm turret armour. They can withstand 75mm rounds from about 1000m and they should have no problems penetrating those 50mm turrets of the PzIV.

The T34 you should use at short range, less than 300m so you negate the longe range capabilities of the pz4.

[dieseltaylor]

Churchill III's. You can buy 6 vets and 2 regulars for 7 IV's [6H's and an L43 variant]. Result at 1300 metres all IV's dead 3 Churchills alive and kicking and one alive but gun damaged.

Easy : )

The number of partial penetrations on the Churchills is amazing and very cheering!

[Zalgiris 1410]

This has been interesting fighting against a platoon and more PzIVs, as the Russians in the the July-August 1943 time period at 1000 points. From my experience I agree with the above posts, you have the option of going with a heap of SU-76Ms, or a few KV-1s or Churchill IIIs, if you don't want to use T-34s or a few SU-152s (which as I said are best for dealing with Tigers). IMO the SU-76Ms are annoying to use and not good against other enemy forces, while being cheap and therefore plentiful they obviously don't servive as much as T-34 43(late) can.

On the best two tanks to go the KV-1s good because they servive the longest over all but with a 2 man turrett suffer the related spotting and lower rate of fire problems and the Churchill IIIs which fire a better AT ability 57mm gun faster than the others but are a little less well protected than the KV-1s, not much but does mean that when their turretts are hit they are more likely to be KOed rather than just have their main guns damaged. A mix of both kinds works well, and are these are both effective even as Conscipts against PzIVHs even when they are Cracked up!

[ August 01, 2005, 03:20 AM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

[ErikinWest]

I noticed though that the soviets have a T34/57. It seems to be a normal T-34 with a beefy gun. And a platoon of them is only 33 more points than a regular T-34 platoon. Hmm....

[Soddball]

Originally posted by ErikinWest:

I noticed though that the soviets have a T34/57. It seems to be a normal T-34 with a beefy gun. And a platoon of them is only 33 more points than a regular T-34 platoon. Hmm....

It's got a much better AT attack, but much weaker HE so if you're fighting armour it's a good bet.

[Zalgiris 1410]

Originally posted by ErikinWest:

I noticed though that the soviets have a T34/57. It seems to be a normal T-34 with a beefy gun. And a platoon of them is only 33 more points than a regular T-34 platoon. Hmm....

Yeah I forgot to metion the T-34/57, but lack big enough HE blast effects as Soddball points out above. They didn't build many of these versions, a few for sure, but personally I feel it is a bit gamey to use them, unless I can imagine them being used on such and such occation. They are better againt Panzers than the 76.2mm tanks with a slightly faster rate of fire, however I prefer the KV-1s and Churchill IIIs with the thicker protection for the mid 1943 time period, but it is not me playing your games, just do as you wish.

[Soddball]

Just a quick thought Erikin. Are you playing All Armour?

If you're playing Combined arms, then the way to beat him on a 1,000 point map is to take as many conscript infantry as you can and leave the tanks out of it.

Maybe take a couple of Zis-3 57mm AT guns (not conscript).

How many companies will 1,000 points give you? 7? 8?

How long do you think his ammo will last against 1,200 soldiers?

Your opponent is cherry picking his situations, I think, to lean the game unfairly in his favour. I mean, he's specified the time when the Germans got one over on the Russians and before the T34/85 came out, which I think is very unfair.

You could always insist on a 1941/early 1942 battle and take KV-1s. That would give him an education.

Or tell him you want a balanced game.

Or you could play all-flamethrowers on a night battle with fog.

[ August 02, 2005, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Soddball ]

[MeatEtr]

Originally posted by Soddball:

Your opponent is cherry picking his situations, I think, to lean the game unfairly in his favour. I mean, he's specified the time when the Germans got one over on the Russians and before the T34/85 came out, which I think is very unfair.

I agree and was just going to mention this. But on the other hand, it sounds like his opponent is usually picking the Pz4's, not any Tigers, Panthers, or Stugs. Which we all know can be a major bitch to deal with pre-85mm time.

Btw, surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet, BUY SNIPERS, at least 2 for a 1000 pointer. Especially when it's mostly a armour engagement. The snipers will kill or at the very least, keep the TC's buttoned up, which can make all the difference in tank duels. They are also good for scouting, giving you a heads-up on enemy movement. Especially if you can get one deep into enemy territory, something of which snipers are good at, since they are the hardest unit to spot in the game.

[Guest Mike]

Set a game up yourself - max out on woods, ATR's and tankhunters!!

[ErikinWest]

Well actually we judicially decided on 1943. It seems that in 1944 the germans just get a wack load of absolutely uber tanks, and in 1942 the soviets have a wack load uber tanks. So 1943 is a nice mix. From your suggestions i decided to get a platoon of SU-152 and SU-122. The both can easily kill and enemy tank in one shot. And i use HMG and snipers to keep em buttoned up and i make sure that i keep my tanks in less open spots. And the conscript infantry really gives you a horde! Ok well i will be having another battle soon so lets see how i do!

Thanks,

Erik

[Guest Mike]

The SU's are marginal - their low rate of fire makes then not soo good for anti-tank work, and their armour isn't that good either.

Let us know how it goes

[JasonC]

Two platoons of StuGs are harder than one of Pz IVs. Against the IVs you can make use of 76mm guns, but since the hulls are still as thick as the StuGs are it can make sense to use similar "StuG killing AT", at least for a portion of your force.

You can take a Sturmovik, 23mm cannon variety. Lots of passes and two shots within each, can penetrate IVs from sides and rear as well as top, break tracks, etc.

You can take a pair of towed 57mm ATGs. Punch through 80mm fronts easier even at medium range. You'll be seen when you fire and sometimes it takes 2-3 penetrations to kill, but if you keyhole you can trade them for Panzer IVs easily and occasionally get 2. With rariety off, a lot cheaper than a Pz IV (about half the price). For added HE ability, suppliment them with a pair of mountain guns (or infantry guns, but the mountain model has better AT ability, good enough to KO a IV from the side at modest ranges). They do the infantry hurting.

You can try taking a realistic 76mm gun battery, meaning 4 towed 76mm ZIS-3. Sides and front turrets they will go in at range. Good HE ability if they live, and with 4 it isn't too hard to get crossing angles for some side shots. For less than the cost of 2 T-34s.

Do not take 45mm ATGs. Inadequate against real armor in all respects. The ATRs won't do anything either - those are for halftracks and scout cars. Don't take tank hunters - inadequate range, and in 1943 many only have molotovs which are useless.

If the terrain is tight and you want infantry AT ability, take one company of pioneers, regular quality. That gives you 6 squads with 2 demo charges each, and 3 HQs. Deploy them with 2 squads about 50m apart with an HQ between them. That gives overlapping demo charge coverage to a width of 100m, 3 times.

On defense you can try taking 8-9 AT minefields in place of one tank or platoon. The problem in small fights tends to be putting them far enough forward that the enemy tanks have to advance past them to get LOS to your defenders. They won't work in urban settings, though. Take a mix of roadblocks and daisy chains in that case. The idea is to create a walled-off infantry defense area that tanks can't get at.

All of those assymmetric measures tend to work better than using AFVs. Because the strongest point of the Pz IV (or StuG) type is its gun, and in 1943 you don't really have anything to stand up to them in a slugging match sense. Instead you want to bushwhack them from blind sides, shoot and scoot fashion.

Useful AFVs with rariety off are the T-34/57s for AT ability, and the SU-152s for their monster HE, to kill infantry. Don't risk the SUs just to duel tanks. Use them to annihilate infantry, and hide them. Make him come to you, force him to try to get you in a little "lair" from which you are dispensing occasionally HE punishment. Shoot and scoot to stay in cover in the long reload times. Don't take 122s, they don't have enough HC or muzzle velocity to be decent against tanks.

You can also try a platoon of Valentine IXs. Their 57s will get through hull front as well as turret. Behind armor effect isn't great and they are slow tanks, with limited HE ability. But they are quite cheap.

Shermans are another reasonable option. The US 75mm is marginally better in AT terms than the Russian 76, and if rariety is off the cost difference is not significant. They also have 3 man turrets, good MGs, etc. (They do bog more, though, so consider them only in fine weather).

You also want to take sufficient numbers of "stealthy" anti infantry weapons, to pin his infantry in any long range open areas without giving neat targets to his tanks. That means MMGs, snipers, light mortars firing from defilade, 120mm FOs. Spend a couple hundred points on these things. You want his tanks forced to come up close to get spots on anti-infantry shooters - that will give you bushwhacking opportunities - side shots at tanks already engaged elsewhere, chances to hit only the leading tank, etc.

And use cover for all of your vehicles, of course. Infantry in the cover spots for the vehicles behind it. Vehicles only show themselves when there is a definite target they want to take out. Never just stand there and duel in the open.

[anteportas]

Recently i have had good results with 45mm AT guns against PzIV and StuGs. Since they are so cheap you can choose to put them in front of your infantry and then let the tanks pass by so you can penetrate them from the sides.

Ideal are places that the opponent doesn't need for his infantry for cover, like small patches of trees surrounded by open ground.

Ofcourse some will be overrun by infantry, but there is a big chance that your opponent missed some and thinks he is safe.

[JasonC]

45mm are dramatically undermodeled and cannot be used in the doctrinal manner. They bounce from the sides of IIIs, IVs and StuGs - particularly those with skirts - due to side angle, even at quite short ranges. At 500m they need nearly flat shots at the side and rarely get them. Behind armor effect is also weak, frequently requiring multiple full penetrations to get a single actual kill.

As for tanks running right between them to give perfect short range zero side angle side shots, only the AI is that dumb. I've killed lots of AI driven tanks with 45mms, but few human driven ones. Humans send infantry first and have the tanks hang back, only coming close enough to get LOS.

You are better off taking 76mm mountain guns than 45mm ATGs. The cost is similar if rariety is off. The 76mm mountain guns typically get a handful of AP rounds, enough to engage one tank. They have better penetration at 30 degree side angle and 500m than the 45mm does, though marginally so.

In practice, they are more likely to kill a III, IV, or StuG from the side at medium range than a 45mm is. They have better behind armor effect and a few more mm of rated penetration at the angles actually seen in practice. They also have huge HE loads, acting as infantry guns in all other respects.

Both are underpowered, shoe string AT. Even the long 76mm guns, which kill easily through sides and can penetrate turret fronts (of late IIIs at close range only it is true), are underpowered as your main AT against humans, who are much more careful about giving side shots than the AI.

[JasonC]

Sample 1000 point Russian combined arms, infantry division force type with rariety off, for a meeting engagement, August 1943

2 SU-152

2 57mm ATG

2 76mm Mtn Gun

Infantry Company (with MMG, 2 50mm Mortar)

+2 MMGs (3 total)

120mm Mortar FO

M3 Scout Car

Jeep

Very strong HE firepower from 2 direct fire 152s, 2 high ammo direct fire 76s, and the 120mm FO.

Strong AT firepower from 2 57mm ATGs and 2 SU-152s. Mtn guns can KO standard Panzers and StuGs with side shots, far better than 45mm ATGs.

Good stealthy anti-infantry fire at range from 3 MMGs, 2 50mm Mortars, and the 120mm FO, all with minimal firing signatures at range.

12 infantry squads, 4 HQs, 3 MMGs give good manpower depth in infantry fighting, against enemy numbers expected to be heavily reduced by HE.

Adequate mobility to reposition guns from the 2 light vehicles. M3 also gives MG fire with good ammo depth, to suppliment foot MGs late.

Support budget is maxed out by the infantry heavy weapons and towed guns. Modest ME artillery budget basically filled by the 120s. Armor budget basically filled by the SUs.

The SUs should stay in cover (e.g. low ground, behind a house, etc) and stalk infantry targets (peeking around a corner, etc) with 1-2 rounds of HE. German AFVs trying to get LOS to them are to be drawn into LOS of the towed guns. Make the German player be the one trying to get rid of the armor.

Protect your own infantry from German AFVs with 57mm overwatch from hiding. Use the first few minutes to tow 2 guns into positions beyond your set up zone, reaching the back of your chosen cover before the enemy can get close enough for LOS. The other guns overwatch from the start line and leapfrog forward if opportunity arises.

Infantry forms a heavy weapons group from one HQ, MMGs, mortars, and FO. One MMG might be detached if desired, 1-2 ordinary squads if desired. One platoon acts as reserve, lagging others (it can e.g. guard an SU "lair" in the meantime, helping spot for them). The other two platoons move fast for the objectives at the start.

You have 4 shooters than think nothing of punching through 80mm plates at range, and 6 that can kill any standard German AFV from the side. You have 150 infantry manpower and at least 125 large HE shells, a fifth of them massive 152mm. Don't lose the SUs early, let them deliver their loads, and it will be hard to lose.

[Reanimator]

I've always found '43 the hardest year to play as the russians. Your armor choices are really limited by rarity to t34s usually and generally they can't do the job vs. stugs, let alone the tigers that start popping up. So '43 is the year I go lend lease, the six pounder valentine can take even tigers from a nice distance and the sherman is an all around good choice as well. The fire quickly and therefore more accurately than the other russian tanks. They also dont retreat like the t34s, something I find very annoying. I would couple the valentine with something with a little HE though. The su series generally isn't the best for long range tank duels, but they will blast infantry to a red smear.

So for the 1000 point force you are going to have both an armor killer and an infantry killer for your tank selection. Sherman can do both, but personally I'd go with a 6 pounder valentine to take out armor (they are really cheap) and a t34 for infantry (has rarity going for it). Then just fill in the rest with troops. Someone may need to correct me on this, but I think the russian tank hunters also have a chance to get a at mine. These are great for taking out tanks if you can get close. Much better than molotovs.

As for at guns, I'd take one or two short barreled 76.2mm for infantry duties, but all varieties just don't do a good job at ko'ing the heavier german tanks that you will often run into. Its better to spend the points elsewhere.

[ErikinWest]

Wow thanks guys! Also - big thanks to JasonC, your post really helped with the demo list. I took a fairly close build of the list and it rocked! Luckily my two jeeps got my 57mm ATG to a good spot. My mountain guns got a few shots off, but they died quickly. The SU-152 absolutely eviscerated the infantry, but there slow reload rate is what got one of them killed. I took some SG43's for there portability and they were fantastic. It was a solid victory. The map was fairly normal. I built it so I had a good feel for it. It had some rolling grain fields on one side and a slightly ‘foresty’ left side. It was about 1000x1000.

My opponent took a platoon of stugs, 1 brumbar,a company of infantry, and a few mortars. The 57mm AT guns took care of the stugs well, but the brumbar shot is really powerful and knocked out both of my guns at the same time (i won’t put them so close together next time). The SU’s took out the brumbar and the last stug, (but unfortunately one of them died) and one was still left on the battlefield. My mountain guns were the worst. They died from infantry firing at them. But a great battle none the less. I am thinking that i may want to try a speedy russian army. So no slow moving units, with some AT guns on jeeps. A Pseudo-Mechanized army.

Ok well thanks again,

Erik