The other UK tournament - NOWT special !

[Lou2000]

(2 games done 6 still running !)

Well done NickT ...... I have your email but the attachment isnt working.....

Can you resend the jpg or just the points scored by both allied and axis ... see earlier post for the points needed.

Once i have them i'll update the tournament pages.

Unlucky Firefly, it sounds like a close run battle ... i wish i had some of that 'lumpy' terain, it would have stopped CSM Hollis's T-34's doing their long range bombardment on my inf

Lou2000

[dieseltaylor]

I have been watching,eventually, the film's of NickT and Firefly. Very interesting game, great map but definitely favourable to NickT.

The reason I mention it was in the early stages it led me to post - Patrix Uncertainty Principle

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=006366

I wonder if any of you have any thoughts to add to the thread given your recent head-to-heads.

P.

[Lou2000]

Ok the results of NickT and Firefly's battle are in and the webpages have been updated to show the current points !! So far we have only had results from Blue Vs Yellow games. Both Blue victories.

NOWT

NickT's individual score or 2909 puts the blues well up, 1614 of his points were from 'Prisoners' so maybe surrender isnt a good idea from the view of gaining points !!

Out of the two games it's one game to the Allied and one to the Axis, so even on that score at the moment.

Anybody have any thoughts on how long the round 1 games should be allowed to run ??

If we can decide a cut off date that suits most people then any games not finnished on that date both players hit the 'ceasefire' button .... If you have any thoughts post em, I'm open to suggestions.

Lou2000

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Lou2000:

Unlucky Firefly, it sounds like a close run battle ...

Well Nick generously forgot to mention that I surrendered on turn 15, partly because I was worried that as we started late we may be holding the rest of you up, but mainly because I realised that my one remaining Stug and one remaining PSW-222 stood no chance against his KV and supporting T-34s and any further efforts would only delay the inevitable. although it might have scored a few more points for Team Yellow .

[NickT]

I think the two issues here are:

1. Until the second Stug bailed out there was always the threat that I might lose two or three more T34s, so although I felt I had the upper hand it wasn't something you'd want to stake your life on.

2. If Firefly hadn't surrendered then, say another 5 goes would probably have been sufficient to outflank and kill his remaining armour. I would have conceivably lost another 2 tanks - one to the Stug and one to the unknown 50mm AT gun. That would have left at least 10 turns to annihilate his remaining company of infantry located in a wood. I would have blasted it with the 250 rounds of 82mm mortar available + a T34 + a KV1 and then sent in the SMGs. This would have been very dull and gruesome for both of us - especially by PBEM.

The prisoner points are quite high - perhaps they need to be adjusted; but I would prefer that to having to continue a game even when it has reached a point where it isn't fun any more.

[Prester John]

We are into the combat but not too far through the game for various reasons. Same old story, fire bounce fire bounce (((

[Lou2000]

Originally posted by NickT:

..................The prisoner points are quite high - perhaps they need to be adjusted; but I would prefer that to having to continue a game even when it has reached a point where it isn't fun any more.

It seems the game had reached a point where you both agree it was pointless ( and no fun ) to continue .... (we've all been there before !)

Perhaps a mutual agreement by both players to hit the ceasefire button would be better that a surrender then the game wouldnt score all one sides units as 'captured' ... but would still score all casualties and flags etc

I dont know if either of you have any saved emails/game turns that would let you try that and see what effect it has on the game points !

Otherwise the prisoner points can either be adjusted ( but how ? ) or as this wasnt stated prior to any games starting we can leave them as they are - -

I'd be interested in any views on changes to the rules so they can be used in the next tournament.

I've been thinking about doing a second one but using < 1000 point games - smaller battles and a bit quicker. Maybe even letting the AI pick forces, so you have to fight with what you are given. Otherwise similar tournament and teams.

.... once again, make your feelings known gents

Lou2000

[ March 19, 2003, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Lou2000 ]

[Apache]

Might be a bit unfair to announce a very short battle one phase now. If people had known at the start they could have upped their speed a little whereas too short a time limit now may penalise some. I would certainly change to a higher risk strategy if I thought there was a time cut off, that way you can rush and capture flags that you wouldn't perhaps have a hope in hell's chance of holding to the end and still get the points. That said, they can't go on for ever. Say 7 - 10 days?

Only problem with AI selected forces I find is that the AI sucks at force selection sometimes, and really sucks too. If you reduce the points further there may be little point in playing combined arms. 1250 would be the lowest I'd go. I'd be tempted to set weather too, rather than randomise it, crap weather really slows it dowm I find. Don't get me wrong, I play in crap weather a lot (comes from living in Wales ) but I think it can slow tourneys down.

[ March 19, 2003, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[jiggles]

MrByte and I are two-thirds of the way through a game on the side while we're waiting for the next round.

My heroic Russian Partisan boys are just getting set to storm his massed Hungarian infantry, which are nicely camped around the two flags. Meanwhile the crews of his Toldis are proving remarkably unwilling to bail, despite having their tank turned into Swiss cheese by my ATRs. Grrrr. Damned Fascists! :mad:

[Mr Byte]

Meanwhile the crews of his Toldis are proving remarkably unwilling to bail, despite having their tank turned into Swiss cheese by my ATRs.

no they are trying to bail they just can't get to the hatch for all those ATR rounds you have fired into them

[Other Means]

if the game isn't winnable, why not stage a fighting withdrawal?

seems more realistic to me, & you might get a few tasty rear shots (oo-er) as your opponent tries to capitalize on the retreat.

[Lou2000]

Another game over......

SteveS & Sandy's game came in as a draw (51% - 49%)... However going by the scoring rules SteveS goes through as the winner with 971 points against Sandy's 940.

Congratulations SteveS but VERY unlucky Sandy - 31 points in it :eek:

Must have been a good game. Hope we get some details on this one.

Tournament pages updated here .......NOWT

Hopefully we'll get a few more results in shortly .... We have still only had results from Blue vs Yellow games. So come on green and red !

Any games that are dropping behind - it would be good if they could roll out a few more moves !

I have no intentions on calling time yet, hopefully ALL games will get to play to their conclusion ......but if any progress can be made it would be good.

Lou2000

[SteveS]

Here's a brief AAR. Our map is on page 4 of this thread. When I saw it at first I didn't feel too confident. There was a line of four flags, three of which were in a valley which seemed much easier to attack from the Ruskie side. The last flag was on a hill on my right flank, but there I had a covered approach.

I decided to send some infantry, a rifle company, carefully up the valley to positions just short of the flags. They'd then wait until the bulk of my forces, a panzergrenadier company and a platoon of 4 PZIIIJs, had secured the right flag and hill. I'd then use the armour to bombard the valley from an elevated position prior to a final assault.

It didn't work out like that of course. I captured the right flag quickly and mauled Sandy's own first attack on the position, killing one T34 and a T60. I then saw 3 more T34s suddenly race over from the other side of the map up to the hill. I managed to get my armour in almost a half circle around them, and by attacking from several angles over the next few turns managed to knock out another two. The last two T34s survived the battle despite a couple of penetrating hits each, and they helped to prevent me from securing the right flank as I'd hoped, although I maintained control of the flag.

As expected, the 3 flags in the valley fell to the Ruskies easily. I'd gotten 3 platoons into position, with the help of a bit of smoke. I then had a brain fart when I broke with my own plan and sent four squads to destruction by advancing across one last piece of open ground too far. They were cut down to a pixel within about 30 seconds.

At the end I managed to contest the control of one of the valley flags which was in a copse of scattered trees. Another platoon assault had failed, despite this time having a reasonable amount of covering fire. But I relocated a couple of tanks up to it, just outside of tank hunter range; several turns of blasting the position with every gun I could bring to bear broke or pinned just enough the defending infantry.

I finally lost my command tank with a couple of turns to go, when I did one shoot and scoot too many. I ended up down two flags to one, and had lost over half of my infantry, mostly stupidly, but the points advantage in the armour battle swung it for me...just.

[ March 23, 2003, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: SteveS ]

[Dr.Juzzy]

Hello Gents - just a quick update on Green 2 vs. Red 2 (Nestor).

We're just over a third of the way through the game. I think both of us have been in close consultation with our commanders at the front co-ordinating our 'Yawn and Snore' tactics.

In the meantime, my infantry have been skulking in the bushes harvesting fruit for jam whilst the Germans have been joy-riding in their half-tracks on the reverse slope of a very prominent hill overlooking the primary VL.

It's all set to change this turn, however, as a rogue axis SP gun looks deterimined on ram-raiding my larder of preserves.

Our turn rate has improved of late so perhaps we can catch up with the rest of you shortly.

All the best,

Justin.

[Prester John]

we're still fighting our way through, i think i have the advantage now after taking out his pair of KV's using my Aspirin technique "Hey Ruski you got headache from all that noise, i have Aspiriiin, you want it ? just come out of that nasty cramped tank ". Seemed to work

Got a couple of t34s to worry bout so not finished yet.

[Dr.Juzzy]

No headaches here, scratch one recalcitrant SP gun.

Get orf my land!

[Lou2000]

Need a bit of feedback prior to round 2 games .....

After reading various posts and emails,and doing a bit of experimenting within CMBB, there are a few questions that I'd appreciate some feedback on ...

(in no particular order)

1. Weather setting = random.

Should this be changed ... we all accept bogging and rain etc .. but it can slow up the action in a game. Would we prefer a clear or overcast setting ?

2. Force mix = Combined arms / mechanised.

It has been suggested that the Germans will have a few problems with this due to the points available. I've done a couple of test setups and there does seem to be an imbalance in the amount of armour each side will be able to pick.

Would it be better setting to unrestricted, armour or anything else?

IMHO this one does need looking at - the Germans could be seriously out gunned !

3. All rounds have Trees: Moderate throughout Hills: Modest.

Would you prefer a bit more variety ... bigger hills or more trees for cover .. or both.

4. 30 turns variable.

These games can take a while to play ... is this lenght about right or should we go for 20, 25 turns etc

5. Any other points you think are worth mentioning

Your call guys ... as long as all games are played with the same settings then things will be as even as they can be in a QB.

There is no problem with making some changes at this stage but I want to get things sorted out prior to any round 2 games kicking off .... Oh yeah and BUMP from page 2.

Post your comments !

Lou2000

[NickT]

Originally posted by Lou2000:

Need a bit of feedback prior to round 2 games .....

Lou2000

1. Weather setting

I'd say keep it random, as although it can be a pain, it seems such a fix to actually know the weather beforehand.

2. Force mix

I'd plump for armour/mechanised. I don't think these sorts of battles are going to be won by armour alone, but at least the Germans get some buying optons that they just don't have otherwise. And an armour rather than unrestricted option still gives some structured constraint to the force mix. Certainly leaving it as combined arms limits the Germans very severely - Stugs in woody terrain...no thanks.

3. All rounds have Trees: Moderate throughout Hills: Modest.

This is fine by me - especially if the Germans can now afford armour with turrets!

4. 30 turns variable.

A 25 turn one always seems to keep you going at a fairly swift pace - perhaps a 10% reduction to 27 will allow the slow build adherents to still practise their art yet add a worthwhile reduction.

[ March 26, 2003, 01:17 AM: Message edited by: NickT ]

[Mr Byte]

I have no real prefrence except..

I would rather NOT have a unrestricted force mix

Combined arms or mech is fine though.

[SteveS]

There are other force combinations you could think of. In a 1500pt/10% loss Combined Arms QB you could have Axis Mechanised (399 armour pts) versus Soviet Guards (423 pts) or Soviet Cavalry (609 pts). I agree that the 730 armour pts the Soviet Mechanised gets are too much of an imbalance in a modest hills/moderate trees terrain.

If the terrain is too flat or open the advantage swings to the Axis player if its clear. I'm not hugely keen on random weather though. There's a lot of variance as it is and in a tourney having tanks bog in damp weather would be even more of a pain I think.

I'd plump for modest hills/moderate trees and dry weather.

I'd be happy with Nick's 27+ game length suggestion.

[ March 25, 2003, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: SteveS ]

[NickT]

Originally posted by SteveS:

I'm not hugely keen on random weather though. There's a lot of variance as it is and in a tourney having tanks bog in damp weather would be even more of a pain I think.

I'd plump for modest hills/moderate trees and dry weather.

Yes, thinking harder on this maybe random weather is too mean - but I'd suggest a fixed weather option that precludes the use of aircraft. I like aircraft, but if the armour forces are constrained to 3 or 4 tanks, then the use of aircraft can be a real game breaker. If there were more points available to armour then I can't see a problem with aircraft - it's up to the player to protect them or have sufficient armour that a 1 or 2 tank loss wasn't critical.

[Later...] Soviet Guards or Cavalry looks a good compromise. I hadn't realised an Armour option rather than Combined Arms means the Germans could have exclusively armour.

[ March 26, 2003, 06:09 AM: Message edited by: NickT ]

[Lou2000]

Well so far the views expressed do seem to support some change to the force composition, weather and a slight adjustment to the game length.

To allow others to post any views I'll give it a couple more days before I offer up some adjusted settings but I'm thinking towards SteveS suggestion of Axis Mechanised (399 armour pts) versus Soviet Guards (423 pts) or Soviet Cavalry (609 pts)for composition.

Maybe 'overcast' for the weather ... to preclude the air support and dropping the game lenghth to 27 turns variable.

Nothing firm yet though and still open to suggestions for or against these (or other) changes !

===============================================

As for the Green1 Vs Red1 battle ... little changes ... CSM is still pounding my infantry with his armour, I still have little to counter it.

Though I did get a kill on a T-34 .... due to a slip of the mouse by CSM .... 'reverse' instead of 'rotate'....

...does anybody remember the scene in Braveheart when the Scots turned, lift their kilts and bared their arses to the British ...

very similar, very confusing but not a mistake he's likely to repeat and he's making up for it now

Lou

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Lou2000:

...does anybody remember the scene in Braveheart when the Scots turned, lift their kilts and bared their arses to the British ...

I thought that was Carry On up the Khyber.

[CSM Hollis]

Well if it isn't bad enough to lose one of my precious T34's to such a disgraceful newbie error now the whole damn forum gets to hear about it.

That does it Lou2000 from now on I'm only going to play sober.

[ March 26, 2003, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: CSM Hollis ]

[Lou2000]

Think how I feel .... the whole forum knows I can only get a kill because of an error

That does it from now on I'm only going to play drunk

-----> I doubt our game will run the whole 30 turns the way my inf are getting pounded ... and dont talk to me about mortars :mad: just how far off target can they get !