Okay you long-winded tacticians, sound off here on halftracks

[Tigrii]

I am wondering what people think about using halftracks. My opinion is that they are very usefull if used carefully, covered by AFVs and leapfrogging from cover to cover. ATRs and MGs almost never get first-shot kills, so even taking a shot or two doesn't hurt if you get behind something quick. Big stuff like tanks can be dealt with by your covering AFVs. The main threat is guns, but you can avoid these guys by staying covered as much as possible and most opponents wouldn't open up on halftracks with those tanks dominating the field. You then disembark your troops a SAFE DISTANCE from the enemy and make way for the footsloggers. This is a lot like paratroops: DO NOT land right on top of your objective, but drop at a distance and attack dismounted, skipping well-defended areas by flying over them and destroying enemy positions to make way for the ground forces. But the C-47s (halftracks) are slow and vulnerable to enemy fighters (AT assets) so they need foghter escort (your tanks).

[Fionn]

HTs are good for coup de main movement through enemy fire etc but personally I've always preferred tankodesantniki

[Tigrii]

Originally posted by Fionn:

tankodesantniki

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[walpurgis nacht]

"tankodesantniki" are infantry that ride on the tanks.

[Redwolf]

For competive CM gaming, they are just too expensive from a victory point standpoint.

52 points HT plus in bad cases like 6 points one man dead and 12 for one captured = 70 points, 2/3rds of a small flag.

For all my CM gaming I was promising myself I'll move them right off the map (or into absolutely tight cover 1m from the edge), and I'm in my first game to actually do it. Until then I always thought I smartassed it but a post-game analysis always revealed I came out negative.

[ February 17, 2003, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[JasonC]

I use them exclusively to maneuver heavy weapons - especially 81-82mm mortars which don't fit on the back of tanks. They taxi those from one overwatch location to the next, after squad infantry has already entered and cleared the next position. Late, they can come out to use their MGs, or they can "keyhole" those at particular infantry defenders their weapons group is hosing.

I don't find them robust enough for other, more forward roles. I agree with Fionn that tank riders are a better way to get infantry close in late rushes. Yes, the infantry on the tank are more vunerable - but the tank is less vunerable than the halftrack. When tank riders are shot off the tank, the tank often eats the shooters in reply. And the shot off men, though messed up at first, will rally once the shooters are silenced.

Whereas with the halftracks, any light armor, gun, ATR, or from the right angle even HMGs, KO the vehicle itself. You might think defenders can't afford to shoot at mere halftracks with their ATGs, but that is only true early and for the heaviest caliber guns. The light ones can penetrate them even at long range.

And at long range, light ATGs don't reveal themselves by firing. Same goes for ATRs. You get only an indefinite sound contact. 28mm squeeze bores, light flak, Russian ATRs or 45mm ATGs - all can KO distant 'tracks without worrying about replies, because you won't even see them.

The thing about medium tanks that makes them so much more effective in all of this, is that light guns can't penetrate them except with side angles and close ranges. At close ranges those guns -do- get spotted. While high caliber guns that can hurt them at longer ranges, have big signatures when they shoot and are easily spotted. (Truly extreme range, bigger than most CM maps, they too are just sound contacts. But hit chances against moving targets are very low at such ranges).

As a result, even if the gun can kill the tank, it will die in response. And that just isn't true for the light armor, because it can be KOed by the popguns from too far away to spot them back.

One man's opinion...

[Tigrii]

Yeah, but can't you open up with an MG at range to scare the troops off the tank, and yet be even less vulnerable to discovery than a light gun? Troops take casualties, tank is buttoned, troops pinned, tanks delayed to wait for recovery, and you can continue to harass with MG even once they re-mount.

[xerxes]

I find M5s and M3s to be invaluable in an attack. Obviously best for moving guns and support weapons. They're your best bet for getting your hmgs/mortars across those open spaces covered by enemy hmgs. The mgs on the HTs are excellent with their large ammo loadouts.

If there's air in the sky the HTs moving around in the open tend to attract the attention of the FBs and keep your tanks safe.

I'll ride tanks but only when I'm fairly sure that I won't take mg fire.

If you're into player purchase games, there's a soviet recon company that comes with 8 or so M3s.

[JasonC]

Tigri - yes a distant MG can brush your riders off without being seen. But it does no serious, lasting damage, unlike a dead halftrack. At long range (beyond return spotting), MG fire pins and delays, it does not kill. The riders will recover. A dead HT does not, and leaves the passengers just as stranded.

Just leave them motionless for a minute, and then if you need to get somewhere go to "advance" by short bounds. The MG can spend ammo to hold you in place and delay you, if he has it - and if nobody is close enough to the MG to get an ID.

Tank rider rushes work best late, just like HT rushes. MG positions have already been approached to ID them, some taken out, others out of ammo or only enough left for close in defensive shooting.

If you "find one" at range in a late tank rider move, go to work on it the usual way. Somebody gets close enough for full ID, and a tank then eats it with HE.

[demoss]

"tankodesantniki" are infantry that ride on the tanks.

Just for a little insight into Russian thinking, I believe it literally means "tank-divers" (desantniki = divers).

As for halftracks, I like to disembark right on top of the enemy if practical. It often isn't (especially after mid-war where light AT weapons abound), but the shock value is not to be underestimated, nor is the firepower put out by a platoon of halftracks. It also gets you into the building a lot faster, if you live - it's hard on both the halftrack crews and the passengers if you don't have as much suppression as you thought you had. Works best in scattered trees, though, for the obvious reasons.

[Gen. Longstreet]

There's a difference between German halftracks and Allied.

Where I seldom buy US halftracks, I tend to buy quite a number of German halftracks, with some nice 20MM or 75MM for the much needed close support.

However, they do need to be looked after quite carefully.I always seem to loose about 75% of them

[Three_Oh_Eight]

OK, I'm new, so this is probably old news to all you vets, but I have one word re: halftracks.

M-17

Bwahahahahahahahaha!

I just discovered in a QB vs 1944 Germans.

Ooh. Ooh. Ooh. Look at the Facists fall down!

IIRC it was known as "The Chopper"... and it sure shows why in CM!

[Tigrii]

M17 is terribly vulnerable (more so than other HTs). HMGs, ATRs, anything can kill it. I even knocked one out with a platoon salvo at 85m. Transport halftracks are much more valuable (and less expensive).

[JP Jones]

I used a sniper to take out 2 M-17 halftracks. It even gave him the credit.

[Three_Oh_Eight]

Originally posted by Tigrii:

M17 is terribly vulnerable...

I don't doubt it.

But man when they do fire (I bought 3 in my QB... BTW, thinking they were transports... as I said, I'm new), they rip things apart.

I think that the AI doesn't key on them like I would playing hth; as support, with squads in front of them, it's the squads that are getting shot at while the M-17s make their ziiippppppper sound.

[Gen. Longstreet]

True, you should never send in your HT's without any support (preferably some infantery).

And keep them as far away from any armour as possible, it's not funny to see three of your HT's go up in flames by the hand of one conscript Lynx, believe me

[laxx]

Anyone use HTs as fast recon vehicles to draw enemy fire ? at first i thought it would be gamey until i read that Joachim Peiper used in the russian front, this was discussed earlier ( http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=004687#000000 )

i tried it several times, either HT or the faster armored cars.

[Martinios]

I generally first send in tanks and infantry to scare up the enemy forces. While this is going on, my ht is either hiding or moving around to the rear of enemy forces. Then i have them wait until enemies are scared then send them out. They work as great sweepers and clean-ups.

The point of war is not to die for your country, but to make the enemy die for his.-Gen. Patton

[RSColonel_131st]

I tend to have motorized recon ahead, then tanks and heavy stuff, then HT's carrying the support weapons. By that, they can keep up with the other motorized forces, but are never in the first line of fire.

[Aco4bn187inf]

I often find the sdkfz 251 to be frustratingly vulnerable, and end up just having to let them sit in cover.

One good use is in the defense against advancing or scouting infantry. Their machine guns can deny a lot of territory to enemy troops, and you could withdraw them before heavier forces come to chase them.

The best use I've made of them was in the Iron Roadblock scenario of CMBB- I used them to deliver infantry right on top of the KV1 which was busy shooting up my swarming tanks. The infantry KO'd the KV1 with grenade bundles while my 38T's were shooting uselessly at point blank range. I admit this is a desperate tactic, but worth remembering.

[Zarquon]

I agree that ht's are too expensive to use in large numbers. But you'll see their main strength when reading the above posts; almost everybody stressed a different favourite use. It's their high versatility - they are fast, bullet-proof (at least compared to a wet paper bag), have lots of MG ammo and in a 1500 pts QB attack you can easily afford 3 of them.

Use them as a mortar taxi during the first 5-10 turns, after that do some careful scouting, use it as a mobile mg nest etc. When you held back a spare platoon as an offensive reserve, you can get them to any place on the map in 5 minutes. Most of them might even get there alive.

The fine thing is that there's always lots of work for them to do. Nothing is worse than an expensive, highly lethal specialist unit waiting for an opportunity that never comes. FTs come to mind here.

OTOH a HT, dashing from tree to tree, accomplishing lots of minor missions during the full length of the game will almost always pay off in the end. Just don't expose them for too long. When there's danger on the horizon, get them out of trouble and find them something else to do.

Now, in a defense they seem mostly useless except for moving reserves.

[manchildstein (ii)]

i generally would not purchase halftracks in a qb, but when given in a scenario i'll use the 251/1s in particular the way laxx described, as a kind of 'screen' in front of my 'heavy armor,' particularly in areas with low los where the main force is only 40-50 meters behind the 251/1 screen.

the idea is for the 251/1 to id an opposing unit, then back off if the resistance is too high, and let the heavier stuff move in to deal with it.

it may be my imagination but in late war with the 251/21 (triple 15mm mg) halftracks; they seem to become priority targets of the tac ai.

anyway, there to me there is almost nothing more gratifying in the game than for a 251/1 or 250/1 to id an opposing unit and survive, whilst heavier forces then mop up...

in case you're wondering, when applied in this way the most common result is that the 251/1 is at best shocked and at worst knocked out...

in any case i also like the idea of battle taxis for heavy weapons...

but if you're in a scenario with say, more than a dozen 251/1s you might generally have a chance to get them into some recon (screening) action too...

haltracks with 75mm or 20mm or 37mm guns i routintely use right alongside the heavier armor.... imagine a sector in a built-up area...

typically i'll have a 251/1 screen up front then

infantry platoons and tanks moving right up behind them, then the halftracks with heavier weapons just behind those... all of these within 60 meters or so from 'front to back'

the main key with the heavy weapon halftracks is to find suitable targets... ones that you can effect without being effected in return...

[Poor Old Spike]

Hey Tigrii mate!--Sorry I can't add anything to the HT discussion,but I just have to congratulate you on your topic title about "longwinded tacticians",well done!

Sweet Jesus can't they talk and talk!

War is SIMPLE,and just a matter of plain commonsense,there's no need for intense tactical study or anything else!

I joined the Rugged Defense pbem club in early Feb and will shortly have finished 65 cmbb games in 10 weeks,all in my fast simple style and have somehow got to the top of the ladder without reading any longwinded tac articles at all!

If I can do it anybody can!

[Gaylord Focker]

I like to load up on those flak guns, and the biggest baddest tanks around during the period.

It's also a smart move to buy at least 1 to 2 jeeps minimum for scouting purpouses.

They are cheap so if they die who cares? Plus their real fast so you can have them fast move right towards the other side of the map on turn 1. It works great for flushing out those pesky anti tank guns.

After my scouting, i then proceed to hammer the enemies spotted assets like anti tank guns with concentrated mortar fire, no need to use on board spotter for this, and this way it adds much more freedom to mving your own armor assets around the board afterwards.

I also find it a must to max out on the artillary, nothing like laying down some of the heavier shells on troop and vehicle concentrations too, don't buy anything under 150mm artillary spotters, 105mm arty is for pussies.

[Poor Old Spike]

Originally posted by Pillar:

Spike,

Still waiting on that surrender file.

Sorry Pillar mate,I thought YOU were surrendering when you suggested ending that non-ladder training game and beginning a bigger Combined Arms job,so I'm waiting for YOUR surrender file!