mounted infantry tactics

[Flenser]

A question about mounted infantry tactics for superior thinkers...

The problem: Getting your infantry to the place where they can do the most good as fast and as safely as possible.

The solution: Halftracks (and the like)

The problem with the solution: They're damn fragile. Just about anything can kill one.

I'm not talking about trying to drive halftracks up to enemy positions, just getting them close enough (200-300m) to dump the infanty and possibly cover their advance, but I have a rather hard time doing this (see 'problem with solution', above)

Any hints, suggestions, derisive laughter?

[Tigrii]

There's been some discussion on this, I have some posts on halftracks myself. The trick is to beat down all big-gun resistance with armor before moving up through a covered route (i.e. a valley or wooded area) to a good drop-off point. Halftrack assualts actually do work if you can heavily supress the defenders (I was on the receiving end in a recent IP game). I am sure that this statement will bring vehement criticism from all the vets, but that's my opinion.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Tigrii:

There's been some discussion on this, I have some posts on halftracks myself. The trick is to beat down all big-gun resistance with armor before moving up through a covered route (i.e. a valley or wooded area) to a good drop-off point. Halftrack assualts actually do work if you can heavily supress the defenders (I was on the receiving end in a recent IP game). I am sure that this statement will bring vehement criticism from all the vets, but that's my opinion.

Some years ago (early 1980s) there was a big debate about how to achieve this for real in the pages of the British Army Review. One of the favoured answers was to use the APC's armour to get really close to the preparatory artillery, and de-bus really close to the enemy position. This made more sense in the days when the British Army's standard field piece was a 105mm rather than a 155mm.

It's my opinion that anything without tank-like levels of armour protection isn't fit to be seen in on the direct-fire battlefield, and so I tend to the conservative "battle-taxi" view of APCs and make the trogs walk to the effective fire line.

If you can suppress the defenders well enough to put in an APC-mounted assault (and even an ATR can happily rip up Sd Kfz 251 spamcans), then they are probably suppressed enough for infantry to walk over them, too.

All the best,

John.

[walpurgis nacht]

Flenser,

Yes, moving infantry in halftracks is an artform, but it is difficult to discuss tactics without a specific map as an example. However, here are some general ideas (just remember everything depends on the variables):

Troop carrying halftracks (Axis) offer good protection for troop transport, much better than moving troops on top of tanks where they are vulnerable to small arms fire.

Depending on the specific halftrack (top speed and horsepower), you should try and keep movement from patch of cover to patch of cover (behind slopes counts as cover). For example, if you are moving a halftrack to a certain patch of trees to drop off infantry, but you are moving through suspected areas of enemy fire (AT guns, etc), try and move quickly from tree patch to tree patch, staying out of enemy LOS whenever possible. NEVER turn in open ground, always make turns behind covered patches (vehicles turn slowly leaving them exposed at turnpoints, so beware!).

Remember, one patch of woods, 10x10 meters, (with gentle slopes and clear LOS) is not enough to cover any AFV. You need to be behind tree patches that are 35-40 meters "deep" in order to be sure you block enemy LOS. This is helpful when halftracks are towing guns into position as well.

Make the final endpoint for the halftrack right behind (very close) the very back middle of a larger tree patch, say 40x40 meters. This should keep the halftrack covered (if you can make it there!)

Also, keep that halftrack buttoned up. With a crew of 2, 1 casualty means the MG on the halftrack will not work.

I'm sorry if this is confusing, there are so many things to consider it is hard to help without specific maps/examples.

[ February 13, 2003, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ]

[Olle Petersson]

As the others have stated it depends on terrain and situation.

I've had success a couple of times (mostly in CMBO, mind you) by;

1. Shell the enemy position with medium artillery.

2. After a few turns of shelling mix in some smoke with it.

3. Switch to full smoke on the enemy as you run your halftracks on top of (or even just behind) them, MGs blazing to suppress any spotted enemies.

4. Stop the artillery as the APCs reach their goal.

5. The infantry disembark and finish off the enemy by themselves and by (borg-)spotting for direct firing support units in the rear.

The halftrack MGs are *good* for suppressing the enemy during the assault, and the M3/M5 HTs even have a 360 degrees field of fire.

Cheers

Olle

[Flenser]

Good stuff so far.

The "wall of fire/smoke" idea seems to be the way to go and I've had some success with that. Its rather expensive (in terms of points spent on FOs), but I guess if one can't afford that in the first place, one probably doesn't have any business making this kind of assault.

Keeping the HTs alive after the smoke has cleared (and after they've dropped off the footies) is probably my biggest problem, since I want them to be able to support the attack (otherwise why not just use trucks...?)

Thanks for the help so far.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Flenser:

Keeping the HTs alive after the smoke has cleared (and after they've dropped off the footies) is probably my biggest problem, since I want them to be able to support the attack (otherwise why not just use trucks...?)

If you're rushing an unexplored area with these halftracks and infantry then I can hardly find an example where the risk could be worth it (unless you have an overwhelming force in a senario with very few turns where the rush is necessary). Halftracks are seriouly vulnerable to AT rifles, hand grenades, MGs, and even the smallest, small-arms fire.

But if you must . . . . make sure that when the smoke clears, your halftracks are in the most covered position possible relative to the possible places the enemy could have something to kill it. (i.e., the back-center of a patch of woods that is at least 40x40 meters thick).

Go to the possible places you want to send the halftracks and look around in view level 1. Consider which areas could possibly hold enemy troops/guns. This will help you find the precise endpoint you want to choose, and in the case of german halftracks, which way you should have the nose pointed for potential MG support.

Also, I would dismount the infantry and let them "find" what's there before sticking your nose out to support them with the vehicle.

To support the infantry as safely as possible with the HTs: keep them buttoned (always), keep them at least 35 meters away from any possible enemy infantry, and have several paths (ideally) they can move quickly to be out of enemy LOS.

Why not trucks? Wheeled-vehicles are really slow off the road. Trucks have no armor and small-arms fire from squads at range will knock them out almost immediatly. They don't have MGs.

Regards, Walpurgis

[ February 13, 2003, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ]

[JasonC]

I don't find HTs useful for getting squad infantry into assault positions. I do find them useful for moving around the slower infantry heavy weapons, and that is what I use them for - in modest numbers. Then the 'tracks themselves act as a supplimental portion of the "overwatch group" such heavy weapons represent. I am talking about HMGs and 81mm mortars, especially.

The drill is, an overwatch group has an HQ to spot for an 81mm mortar, and 1-2 HMGs, sometimes a radio FO. They are in position someplace, watching targets 250-500 yards ahead that ordinary infantry are headed for. When it is clear they no longer have targets from their present positions, they embark on HTs waiting behind the body of cover they were positioned in - house or trees, whatever.

Squad infantry has already reached the next point, so it is not a matter of advancing against an enemy position. The HTs fast move to the rear side of the next item of cover forward. Teams out, mortar sets up behind, HQ goes furtherest first to spot, HMG(s) and/or FOs beside it. Instead of a long slow crawl across open areas, vunerable to anything (a single repositioning tank, a light barrage, etc), the heavy weapons set up again in a few minutes.

The fast regular infantry advance on foot. But they wind up taking their time, to avoid fatigue, to overwatch each other and risk less at once, make use of cover, etc. They also pin as they take fire. The regular tanks are helping them with overwatch all the time - the infantry heavy weapons suppliment that when in position. The overall pace of the advance is about the same, by vehicle bounds behind the front, or by fast infantry up ahead.

The HTs themselves only come out to fire late, or when they have good "keyholes" to single infantry enemies. Then they suppliment the firepower of the overwatch group. "Come out" simple means move to the side of the house the MGs are in, or around the corner of their woods, lip of a hill etc. They don't charge, and show themselves to as little as possible besides the immediate target.

By then, FOs have often run low or dry, and the same with the mortars. HMGs are usually still functioning, but sometimes suppressed. When the HTs do throw in their own MG fire, it is a large uptick in the firepower of the overwatch group, and the enemy is typically weak by then, so they do fine. You do have to worry a bit about ATRs, which is the reason to still "keyhole". Heavy AT has bigger fish to fry is should already be dealt with anyway.

I wouldn't try this with squad infantry, though. HTs are expensive compared to gun armed tanks, so you can't really afford enough to move sizable numbers of men. And they are not robust if exposed to any sort of intact defense. The leading edge of your advance needs robustness, either in the form of infantry depth of men and ability to rally, or reasonable armor plates.

Tanks can't do the weapon repositioning job because they can't lift a 81mm mortar - or the Russian HMGs, come to that. (50s are no substitute for 81s-82s, which pack much greater punch against guns and MGs). And you want them on their own, more valuable missions. Medium speed items can walk behind the regular infantry; they have the same speed as infantry on "move". Though that is sometimes too risky for a valuable radio FO. The downside to embarking one of those is you can't call missions mounted.

As for burying the enemy in HE and then smoke, um, the HTs are getting pretty pointless by the time they need that much help.

A single gun armed halftrack, light tank, or large caliber HE-chucker vehicle plus a pair of MG armed 'tracks hauling teams make a fine general purpose overwatch group. They can deal with every sort of speciality target with the proper countermeasure, from beyond effective range of squad infantry replies.

Either in armor or in cover, they are also pretty well proof against MGs. Light arty can pin the foot elements but gives a poor longer term payoff, since it rarely KOs the 'tracks themselves and MGs down a couple of men still shoot just as well. If you lose a 'track, the heavy weapons continue to fight from the last place you got them, or if the fight around them ends completely, can shuttle forward in the remaining one.

[ February 13, 2003, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Flenser]

More good stuff.

I don't send the HTs into unexplored areas. (well, I did. once.)

JasonC's post makes a lot of sense as well, a battle taxi for the heavy support elements.

I'm trying to use them in more of a flanking role, for getting troops around/behind entrenched positions without exposing them to too much fire and keeping them fresh. There is probably a better way to this...

On a side note, what are some efficient techniques/weapons for taking out entrenched troops (not necessarily involving HTs )? Big arty seems ok... but is rather expensive. Attacking from multiple directions works, but...(see above). Haven't tried some of the larger (81mm) mortars much, if they're effective then JasonC's post makes even more sense.

Thanks again, you guys have been a great help.

[xerxes]

Try "SP-Into the Void" if you'd like some good HT assault practice. Excellent scenario and it may change you mind about the utility of the HT for panzergrenadiers.

[Flenser]

Hmm. Will do.

If I recall, there is a moral penalty when a squad is being shot at from widely different angles (part of the reason for getting behind). Is that penalty enough to spook squads out of trenches? Or is loads of direct HE still the best way to go?

[RSColonel_131st]

A few points...

I'm not a long time CMBB Player, but I'm getting better, and for my understanding infantry always is supposed to support armor, not the other way round. Infantry is usefull for holding ground, but you really need tanks to get them there (unless you have a map with so much wood that vehicles are useless anyway).

I usually do okay with a squad riding on each tank, and any additional vehicles will be used for HMGs, FO's, and other support staff.

I could imagine that in small games without lots of tanks, or in huge battles without armor, that infantry in HT's has a place...but as soon as you bring armor in, HT's are not really usefull.

If I had to convert my tactics for HT's, I'd have them follow the heavy first line of the attack, ready to dismount and surpress Anti-Tank Stuff or scout for the heavier units.

The German Infantry Squad Tactics book sold here on the site is supposed to have a chapter about mounted and unmounted infantry tactics in cooperation with HT's. I'll fetch it from my parent's home this weekend, can tell you then how usefull it is.

[CombinedArms]

A few of my general rules about HTs:

1. Keep them behind cover early in the game.

2. Bring them out of cover late in the game, after the armor battle has been won, enemy ATGs have been located and neutralized, and their MG firepower can be used without significant risk. Or use them in a keyholed pocket where you're sure (for whatever reason) the enemy has no AT assets

3. Use them as "battle taxis" up to the point where cover gives out, then hold them behind that cover till it's safe to bring them out. The infantry disembarks into that cover and fights from there.

4. They can be VERY valuable in ME's where the terrain allows you to use cover to get very close to victory flags. Dump out your infantry at the point where cover gives out, and secure the flag with them, then bring up your tanks. HT's hide till the armor battle is won.

5. IF the HTs can safely overwatch after delivering their human cargo, fine--again in a pocket where you're sure there are no AT assets.

6. Or keep a reserve "shock platoon" of infantry in HTs so that that you can: a) on defense rush (behind cover) to meet an enemy attack or, on offense, rush to exploit a decisive breach in enemy position. Even here, I would tend to ride the troops in HTs to a point behind some recently controlled cover, then have infantry fight from there.

7. If the enemy has planes, keep HTs in scattered trees--or consider exiting them from the map...Airpower is lethal to HTs, with their open tops.

[ February 14, 2003, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

2. Bring them out of cover late in the game, after the armor battle has been won, enemy ATGs have been located and neutralized, ... Or use them in a keyholed pocket where you're sure (for whatever reason) the enemy has no AT assets...

The scenario I described above assume that proper recon has been done, to find the MLR. The enemy is fortified with trenches and wire, possibly some mines as well. Infantry strength is about equal in numbers for defender and main assault wave (a company per side).

Some enemy ATGs and most infantry AT weapons are still around, but not any expected mobile armour.

Then conducting the main assault with armoured infantry, supported by a platoon or more of tanks or assault guns, will overwhelm the defenders. (Five or more HTs per ATG is more than sufficient at close range...)

Notice that the five extra halftracks you get with a German company are useful to replace other bogged and shot up ones during the advance.

Cheers

Olle

[Cannon-fodder]

Reading the posts, it strikes me that all the tips for succesful Halftrack ferrying involve 3 different tactics:

1) Avoiding fire - the halftracks are kept in cover as much as possible and brought to safest distance before infantry is disembarked.

2) Overwatch capabilites - the halftracks are used as faster MGs and/or to keep the other overwatching MGs and Mortarts up to speed.

3)Flanking an enemy - round the side/back of enemy forces, and you can hit 'em in the rear... or can you?

Now, the problem with 1) is that if you wish to avoid fire anyway, you might as well use trucks - they accomplish roughly the same goals and are a hell of a lot cheaper. Besides, as you pick your forces generally BEFORE you see the map, there is no way to guarantee they will be much use for this kind of operation.

As for 2), this is all very well, but do you really need a particularly mobile overwatch. I've always favoured armour, since HE is so much more effective. In addition, overwatch can really take its time a bit since you don't have to, and really shouldn't, rush an advance.

3) is a great idea in theory, but utterly useless in practice. First of all, any form of flanking maneouver involves not really knowing what the enemy has on that flank. A canny human opponent will have areas of flank advance covered with some form of AT.

So, what's my solution? Well, nothing definite, but for starters I would consider very carefully whether you actually NEED halftracks. Personally I use trucks a fair amount on larger maps to ferry my reserves about. However, they are always ferried to areas I have reconned and already hold with an advance force. I have also had a lot of success with using trucks on the defence - it allows me to set up with a small forward position, and therefore 'absorb' the main enemy push. Then I allocate my trucks to where I need them.

So, in summary, halftracks are glorified transports. Yes, they ahve a bit of armor and an MG, but 9/10 times this doesn't help them much at all. Stick with trucks, and NEVER try to assualt with infantry mounted in ANY vehicle.

Hope this helps...

TimG

[dieseltaylor]

As always size of map and terrain are key to whether APC's are going to work. If you play on small maps forget it. Large and huge maps they will probably be valuable.

On large maps ME's getting useful troops up early to harrass advancing troops can pay big dividends. You often do not wish to risk tanks in this role early but troops going through patches of wood will provide intel and possibly disrupt advancing troops.

Playing the British I was once able to use the speed of the carriers to occupy most of the enemies good left flank terrain and work around his troops grouped around the flags. Speed was crucial and the British mortars made quick work of the units meant to deny the area. Russians have access to both ...........

[George MC]

Originally posted by Flenser:

A question about mounted infantry tactics for superior thinkers...

The problem: Getting your infantry to the place where they can do the most good as fast and as safely as possible.

The solution: Halftracks (and the like)

I've jus posted a wee scenario at the Scenario depot on CMBB - SPW Hotrodders - its based on the lengthy discussion topic title dealing with your points above (i think the full title was Panzergrenadiers - not SPW Hotrodders. The actual scenario is based on a true event. Not giving much else away though. Might be fun to play with some ideas?

Cheers fur noo

George Mc

ps in Jochen Peiper by Patrick Agte there are some discussions re PzG SPW tactics - in several sections there is mention, and description of Hussar type tactics (try that on a CMBB battlefield and you'll be up tae yer oxters in burning/knocked out SPW )

[leakyD]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

6. Or keep a reserve "shock platoon" of infantry in HTs so that that you can: a) on defense rush (behind cover) to meet an enemy attack or, on offense, rush to exploit a decisive breach in enemy position. Even here, I would tend to ride the troops in HTs to a point behind some recently controlled cover, then have infantry fight from there.

This is the best use of HT's I've found, esp. against (a) infiltrated infantry without heavy support and/or ( to aid the fulcrum of an attack when momentum is everything.

[FM Paul Heinrik]

Cannon-fodder, I agree with your tactics. Using HTs in an offensive attack is just begging for them to turn into... well, cannon-fodder.

I have had the most success using HTs in an assault role only when supported by armor on a min. of a 2 to 1 ratio. That's 2 tanks per 1 HT. But, in actuality the HTs are simply mopping up what the dismounted infantry and tanks routed.

Normally, I think of and use HTs as if they were trucks that happen to have an MG on it. That MG is nice because HTs can return fire as they retreat which sometimes buy them enough time to get back into cover. Where as trucks simply get destroyed if hit by anything and has no chance at suppressing fire. So, I do not engage my HTs with the enemy and if spotted I try to pull them back quickly. At the same time, if they get themselves into trouble I do not go out of my way to protect them with other troops or divert overwatch to them. So basically, if my game plan works out my opponent will never see my HTs until he is routed and should morally be calling for a cease fire.

[Macphail]

You guys made alot of good points so far, but no one has mentioned the other kinds of halftracks carrying mortars, or 20mm, or other guns.

I have been playing QB's and letting the computer buy my units, and i get these kind of things alot. The computer will buy companies or battalions that have these as organic support. I tend to use them in a similar fashion to what has already been stated. Near the end of a fight, or what i feel is a turning point in the battle, when i think all enemy tanks, and AT guns have been destroyed, i will move them out of cover to harrass the retreating enemy. on a good day, such HT units will rack up impressive kill numbers. AFAIK, HT units with inf guns or 20mm have far more ammo than their tank bourne versions. I think the Panzer II carries around 60 rounds of 20mm, and the HT has well over 100.

As some one else also already mentioned, a Grille, or other such mobile artillery coming over the hill with the support HT's is very useful too. Any remaining infantry units will be further encouraged to run away, lest they be blown to bits.

[Glider]

There are a few tricks kind folks of this message board mentioned concerning use of HTs and trucks. I don't recall the author, I just copy/pasted the text for future reference but kudos to him/her/it anyway:

"There is a difference how far the disembark movement point is from the vehicle and embarked unit. I'll try to explain that.

Let's assume there is a truck standing with infantry in it. You give the truck Fast move order to some location, say 100m away. But, you want to disembark the infantry unit right here right now.

Then, the only thing you have to do is to place the disembark movement point closer than 25 meters from the truck. The infantry unit will disembark on the very first second of the turn, wait on the ground for the movement delay, and then proceed to the set disembarkation point.

Also note that movement path for the infantry unit can be longer (multipoint), the only thing you have to keep in mind is that the first point must be inside 25 meters.

If the disembark movement order is further than 25 meters, and the vehicle has movement orders, the infantry unit will ride with the vehicle until it stops, and then follow their own orders.

There's also nice trick to get the units off the vehicles while they're in the middle of movement path. Just order one pause for the vehicle, and order the infantry to disembark (again, closer than 25 meters). At the start of the turn, the vehicle will stop for 10 seconds, infantry disembarks and vehicle proceeds further."

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Glider:

"...

There's also nice trick to get the units off the vehicles while they're in the middle of movement path. Just order one pause for the vehicle, and order the infantry to disembark (again, closer than 25 meters). At the start of the turn, the vehicle will stop for 10 seconds, infantry disembarks and vehicle proceeds further."

Sharp turns, a reverse in the middle of the movement path or anything that makes the HT slow and a first movement point for the inf 25 m or less to where the HT is slow should work, too.

But on the more important topic:

Jason sums up how I use my HTs. I have them in a campaign core (vs AI, but usually the AI has a bonus so I can't suppress ever unit) and they get really old.

I like the German PzGr company (mot) with the HTs in the wpns plt. 3 HTs as taxi for heavy wpns and guns, 2 mortar carriers (more round per point spent) as part of the overwatch group. Pretty much everthing you need for those tactics - at discount rates.

The "Stummels" (251/9) in that company are less effective. Behind tanks, keyholed... they survive, but their effect even point blank is rather low.

Sometimes I even use the HTs for rare mounted counterattacks vs retreating or unaware parts of the enemy. Mounted attacks vs prepared positions are near impossible - but in MEs or in counterattacks they often work. Reason: Enemy heavy wpns are too far away and/or the positions are usually known and can be effectively suppressed as you saw them advancing.

Gruß

Joachim

[FM Paul Heinrik]

Originally posted by KG_Steiner:

You guys made alot of good points so far, but no one has mentioned the other kinds of halftracks carrying mortars, or 20mm, or other guns.

I have been playing QB's and letting the computer buy my units, and i get these kind of things alot. The computer will buy companies or battalions that have these as organic support. I tend to use them in a similar fashion to what has already been stated. Near the end of a fight, or what i feel is a turning point in the battle, when i think all enemy tanks, and AT guns have been destroyed, i will move them out of cover to harrass the retreating enemy. on a good day, such HT units will rack up impressive kill numbers. AFAIK, HT units with inf guns or 20mm have far more ammo than their tank bourne versions. I think the Panzer II carries around 60 rounds of 20mm, and the HT has well over 100.

As some one else also already mentioned, a Grille, or other such mobile artillery coming over the hill with the support HT's is very useful too. Any remaining infantry units will be further encouraged to run away, lest they be blown to bits.

IMHO, the HTs with guns are junk except for the mortor carriers and FT. I think they stink because: 1) the cost a lot 2) they can die from MG fire 3) they are spotted very easily. The difference between a Pz II and 20mm HT is that the Pz II can survive MG fire and that is a big deal. Within the rules of combined warfare the HT are only good against infantry only and even then inf. supported by guns can decimate the HTs. If one has a hard time using Marders then the use of gunned HTs is out of the question. If you're dealt a hand of gunned HTs then there is the right way to attack but the rules are the same with armor it's just that you can't afford even the slightest mistake with the HTs.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

i play infantry heavy battles, of mechanized or at max combined arms type.

i use halftracks as a mobile overwatch that follows 100-200 meters behind infantry.

halftracks offer superior response time if compared to machineguns or mortars that are moving. that's crucial if you get ambushed. halftracks respond "immediately", where as it may well take a minute to get a machinegun or mortar to fire. of course ideally you would have your mortars & machineguns sitting on some hill, but i rarely play on a hilly terrain.

halftracks are also well protected against non-heavy machineguns and mortars. they don't get pinned and thus return fire much more effectively. they are rather resistant against ATR fire - it takes 1-2 minutes for a single ATR to take out one halftrack, where as you can take out a spotted ATR quite easily. heavier guns are a real threat, but you just have to live with it.

halftracks also carry godless amounts of ammo. non-halftrack machineguns usually run out of ammo about in a half an hour. halftracks keep firing for an hour. it really starts to show after the first 30 minutes in infantry heavy battles. and those German mortar halftracks are simply super sexy - mobility, good load of rounds and you can still fire indirect fire.

some other natural functions for halftracks is moving guns around, doing recon and recon overwatch.

i love halftracks, but i think one needs to have a long, infantry heavy battle to have a real use for them.

[Macphail]

"1) the cost a lot 2) they can die from MG fire 3) they are spotted very easily."

1) they cost a little less, but have more ammo. its called a trade off.

2)IF the (H)MG's fire, they will most likely fire at one of the many infantry units that is throwing grenades at the defenders (which is when my HT's become exposed.

3)who cares by that point, i can see him too. and he is running away from all the explosions and death. remember they have also suffered mortar, mg fire, and arty, for 15-20 minutes. the HT's are just icing, a further encouragement to bugger off.

it depends on the type of engagement, and i have been playing setups like mr undead just mentioned. hilly, mechanized inf, combined arms...and letting the puter pick my stuff. the computer picks these type of HT's, so u should use em'.

i think the rule of thumb here, would be that u should wait until he is fairly beaten down, and and u have used up your other resources.