Eastern Front issues

[John DiFool]

1. Shouldn't surprise work the other way around?

German armored spearheads move rapidly into the

rear of the Russian line, wreaking havoc. The way

surprise works now it really hampers the German

advance.

2. Attacking units really should move into the

hex of a unit it just destroyed. If you kill the

enemy unit then you have to hunt around for something

else to occupy the hex (esp. critical when taking

cities)-and if there is none to be had the enemy

just reoccupies it (albeit at low entrenchment).

3. Copenhagen should restrict movement into and out

of the Baltic. Each time I have attacked the Russians

their two ships just zip out of the Baltic and join

the British fleet (can they even base and repair

themselves at British ports?).

4. This time one which might hurt the Russians. In

other games the winter gives them a breather-a chance

to recuperate and repair units and buy new ones.

However since the production isn't scaled out in

accordance with turn length (as discussed in another

thread), winter turns aren't really different in this

respect than are summer turns and they get less of a

chance to 'catch up' to the Germans during the winter.

(I refrain from comment on the weather issue)

5. Select the units attached to the HQs. If the

randomizer fails to support a critical tank unit

which is otherwise in range, then that might pooch

a crucial assault. I hate it when the HQ supports

some corps doing garrison duty behind the lines while

ignoring my elite tank army.

6. In COS, the Russians are active even when neutral.

This gives the Russian player a chance to set up his

defense to his liking. In SC, they are stuck with a

default defense and the only recourse is to talk your

opponent into tweaking it in the map editor before the

game (which I am sure will happen in many PBM games).

This is simply disingenious.

As it is, there will be some weird ahistorical effects

-of course in the full game things might be different

(since I usually attack in August but in reality the

Germans would have 9 extra months of preparation).

John DiFool

[ May 30, 2002, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: John DiFool ]

[pzgndr]

I also like the idea of Russia as an active player, even while neutral. Probably won't change for the SC release (?), but making Russia a separate side should be considered eventually. Bessarabia, Finnish border and possible Turkish campaign come to mind, in addition to occupying Eastern Poland and the Baltic States. Russia should be free to make these decisions, good or bad, and be free to deploy their defense.

Control of Copenhagen and Gibralter should be required for any naval movements past them, or else limit range of fleets from friendly bases, to prevent unrealistic situations.

Maybe surprise rules for armor can be reconsidered if ZOC is added. They don't need a bonus, just remove the penalty, to account for their mobile recon elements.

I will also refrain from bringing up seasonal effects on the Eastern Front. :mad:

If there are no MPP transfers (Murmansk Convoy or Persian route) and no relocation of Russian resource centers, I'm wondering how Russia survives in SC following a German invasion. Other than research to improve their remaining industry, what does Russia do in 1942-43 to improve their situation? Just curious.

[Aloid]

These are really good points. I ran into this last night, as it was my first invasion of Russia.

At first I really had a lot of heartburn over these issues, but in the end I managed to do very well as the Germans. Edit... Though my drive is stalling against the Russians 460 points a turn!

Somehow much of this all washes out clear in the game.

Though the HQ supporting garrison units instead of my panzer troops, is still a major pain. :mad: (I need to buy more HQ's I think)

Aloid

[ May 30, 2002, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: Aloid ]

[Lars]

Originally posted by Bill Macon:

Control of Copenhagen and Gibralter should be required for any naval movements past them, or else limit range of fleets from friendly bases, to prevent unrealistic situations.

You do have to control Gibralter to move surface units past, but the Italian sub can get through.

Copenhagen isn't exactly fortified. Just put a cruiser in the Skagarak to do the same.

[Aloid]

Hmmm... Where is Super Ted? :cool:

As one of the few to have played the whole game, his input would be "choice".

Aloid

[SuperTed]

Originally posted by Aloid:

Hmmm... Where is Super Ted? :cool:

As one of the few to have played the whole game, his input would be "choice".

Aloid

Aloid,

Sorry, I was napping. What did I miss?

I'll be back after soccer practice (priorities ) and I'll be happy to throw some thoughts your way.

[ May 30, 2002, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: SuperTed ]

[rleete]

If the USSR was an active player, the MPPs would have to be really limited. Otherwise, at 460 a turn, they could be rolling into Berlin early 1941. Not much fun playing such a one sided game.

[grimlord]

also there doesnt seem to be the siberian divisions...or is it because the game ends in 41...not sure the i hvnt tried playing russia as the allies..the comp will not invade so cannot be sure

[Gen.Metaxas]

Great post John Difool

These are really good points. I love the theme and strategic level of this game. I have played all the good, crapy and great games produced in the last 15 years on this subject.

At first I compared this game to its predecessors and saw weeknesses. After playing over 30 games of the demo I realized the game has its own mechanism which brings balance. I credit you for not complaining about things that this game is not designed to be and suggesting good enhancements to game play. Just my opinion.

That being said

2) I agree completly but add that moving into the hex should be optional each time a enemy unit is destroyed. I hope this can be easily added.

3) Not a big issue for me I always destroy the Russian boats using the 2 crusiers while the sub hides 4 spaces back to surprise strays. However, I can see your point and should be easily programmed.

4) I agree totally. A simple Fix although it will need game testing for balance and flow would be to increase per turn income for months with less turns. If winter months have 1 turn and summer months have 4 then winter turns should get 4 x the income or some lower number to incorporate lower production in winter if that makes sence. That way there would be an incentive to strengthen the German Line in the winter instead of continuing to move forward since Russia will be receiving these new troops alot closer to the front then Germany. Hence Russian winter offensives and German Summer offensives.

What do you think?

5) I like the idea not sure how easy it is to do.

6) In fact all of this game's predecessors worked this way. If it can be fixed I am all for it. If it is too much of an overhaul this functionality will be missed.

Now I have to try to take Moscow before the demo's premature end date.

Gen.Metaxas

[SuperTed]

Originally posted by Bill Macon:

If there are no MPP transfers (Murmansk Convoy or Persian route) and no relocation of Russian resource centers, I'm wondering how Russia survives in SC following a German invasion. Other than research to improve their remaining industry, what does Russia do in 1942-43 to improve their situation? Just curious.

Bill,

As was the case in the real deal, hang on for dear life and scream at the western Allies for a second front! In all seriousness, the key to defending Mother Russia is plugging holes and keeping the Krauts out of the Caucasus. Your goal is to slow the juggernaut long enough to get Britain and the US to start drawing German resources away from the east. Once this is accomplished, Bagration can begin...

[SuperTed]

Originally posted by R_Leete:

If the USSR was an active player, the MPPs would have to be really limited. Otherwise, at 460 a turn, they could be rolling into Berlin early 1941. Not much fun playing such a one sided game.

RL,

As it stands now, I am pretty sure they get 5% of their MPPs while neutral.

[SuperTed]

Originally posted by grimlord:

also there doesnt seem to be the siberian divisions...or is it because the game ends in 41...not sure the i hvnt tried playing russia as the allies..the comp will not invade so cannot be sure

Grimmy,

The Siberian boys don't arrive until winter of 1941, when the Japanese assure the Soviet government that they would rather drag the US into the war instead of helping the Germans to defeat a large, but ill-prepared, EurAsian country.

[BloodyBucket]

At last I got around to attacking Russia in the demo. The overall campaign seemed about right against the AI, with two reservations.

</font>

• Finland gets pounded early and often </font>
• I really miss the Winter </font>

While there is no "first turn after war is declared suprise bonus" that I am aware of, the German advance was satisfactory. The "feel" was about right, probably because I got to smash a few corps with armies. Good advances, HQ trying to keep up, tempting to run the armor out way in front, with the FOW suprise effect adding tension.

The Finns got squished. Perhaps I made an error, but they seem pretty helpless.

Even if it was just a "chrome" effect, like altered graphics during Winter turns, some recognition that Winter is on would be welcome. I doubt that any Winter tweaks are forthcoming, but from a flavor standpoint the Russian Winter is so ingrained in the mind of the WWII gaming crowd that it just seems as if something is missing there.

[Hunter]

Finland is tough...you must have made an error?!

I normally see my Finns down and helping to take Moscow (after Leningrad is taken obviously).

[John DiFool]

Originally posted by Hunter:

Finland is tough...you must have made an error?!

I normally see my Finns down and helping to take Moscow (after Leningrad is taken obviously).

The Finnish army is routinely pounded on by the Leningrad army, while the two corps guarding the eastern approaches are sent scuttling back to Helsinki with 1 or 2 hit points if they are lucky. Mmm anyone remember what happened in the 1939 Winter War?

John DiFool