Follow on from political debate (in major save game problem)

[Emil Seibold]

Ok, I feel that we now need a topic for this. For those of you new to this debate, check out the post mentioned in the title. Some of you say we were all Nazi's in the 1940's-many were. there is a phrase in the "Band of Brothers" series which I like to quote:

German "Ich bin kein nazi" (I am not a nazi)

American: "Yeah, I've been in Germany 2 months now and I haven't met a single ****ing nazi"

The truth was that the nazi's were (with a few exceptions, such as the men in my own Hitlerjugend division, who were more nazi's by indoctrination than choice) cowards who hid behind the ordinary German citizen after the war. We Germans were and still are a proud race, with a proud history. We are not ashamed of the First World war, or even the military aspects of World War 2. The killing of Jews, poles, gypsies and so on we are not proud of, and we consider it a great national wound that we allowed such things to happen. But when it comes down to it, we Germans were not nazi's-we were germans. We did not want to wipe out races of peoples, but we did want our living space. The versailles treaty after WW1 had deeply shamed our nation, and after the wall street crash and during the great depression, crippled out nation as well. The nazi's gave us a radical chance to take back our former glory and to go and take what was ours for the taking. Sieg Heil.

[JerseyJohn]

About a month and a half ago the Hitler Youth came up in heated debate regarding the forming of adoslescents into combat units.

The 1918 Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, ceding Poland and many other Eastern Lands to Germany -- and initially recognized by Britain and France on condition that Germany sign an armistace and withdraw from Belgium and Northern France -- also came up. Naturally, the refutation of that Treaty at Versailles did much, along with the other unwise policies of the Allies, to create a platform for the nazis, or anyone in Germany who believed the already conquered lands should be retaken. Your statement even to this day reflects that viewpoint!

The political atmosphere in pre-war Germany was another topic. Again, if anyone had firsthand knowledge of the events they didn't state it.

Again, none of the contributors had first hand knowledge of the events.

As you've initiated this forum it's assumed you're willing to comment on the times. I think this would be a valuable service because going by the past forums where these topics emerged, it seemed to me that even people who have read extensively on the war in general have a very poor idea of what it must have been like for those who actually went through it.

As an actual witness to and participant in the actual historical events your views are especially valuable to all those who, like myself were born afterwards and in a different culture yet would still like to know what it was all truly about.

I suspect this forum will be locked up fairly quickly as being "off-topic", in other words, not relating directly to the game topic. It would be good if it wasn't, but I'm sure it will be. Meantime, a lot of us would like to hear anything you'd like to discuss.

[ December 16, 2002, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JayJay_H]

Agreeing with you on many points, you dont even know how much

[JayJay_H]

Curious about other replies on that thread. Even though i dont believe yourself really took part in WWII, its good your reminding on who actually declared war on Greater Germany. I also got some previous posts in which i point out that the stolen territories have no historical authority for beeing anything else but German. Lemberg for example was founded by the Hohenstaufens. Go and have a look: Architecture and any cultural testimonies in the eastern provinces are all German to the bone, not slavistic or something, for it had been colonized by the German Order of Knights in the middle ages. WE WILL RISE AGAIN! WE CAPITULATE NEVER! :mad:

[JayJay_H]

so much about 'freedom of speech'

[JerseyJohn]

JayJay_H

When I first read this gentleman's logo, my first instinct said he must have been in the Hitler Youth. That would put him in his early to mid-seventies. When he stated outright that he was in the Hitler Youth it pretty much confirmed things for me and I believe that he did serve in the war. If he'd been alive in Germany at the time there would have been few other options!

Also, his statement -- ". . . The Nazi's gave us a radical chance to take back our former glory and to go and take what was ours for the taking. . ." -- has the tone of someone who'd lived through those times and had been raised with Nazi indoctrination.

[ December 16, 2002, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JayJay_H]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

-- has the tone of someone who'd lived through those times and had been raised with Nazi indoctrination.

Cant imagine anyone in the midseventies and wargaming. Makes me ROFL and Scaring the cat

[ December 16, 2002, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: JayJay_H ]

[JerseyJohn]

Yeah, but wargaming is a weird activity. I'm in my mid-fifties and have been doing it since I was eight. Scaring some unfortunate cat is another matter entirely!

[ December 16, 2002, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JayJay_H]

And he also dont even spell Deutschland correct. I dont care so much about who he is, let him be what he wants just grappling with what hes posting, so i do it usually with every thread think thats the way it should be made or what.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Dont worry Emil, not all of us call All german Troops Nazis.

even though the HitlerJugend, the 12th SS Panzer, was an SS division, and many of the Boy soldiers were trained as part material from birth, the were not all Nazis. They were defending their homeland like anyone else.

CvM

[Brian Rock]

This should be ported to the General Forum as it really has nothing to do with SC. Since it's here I'll pitch in briefly.

Mind you, I don't believe the poster is being sincere at all. I smell troll. Are you perchance the former Stalinist poster putting on another persona?

Originally posted by Emil Seibold:

We Germans were and still are a proud race, with a proud history.

You and everybody else. What made the Germans special? Perhaps the French should use their Napoleonic heritage to justify stomping Germany flat all over again.

We did not want to wipe out races of peoples, but we did want our living space.

Perhaps the Germans didn't notice somebody else was living there, living in caves as they were, without televisions or newspapers or anything.

I guess all those people shooting back from the supposedly unlived in parts of Europe surprised the hell out of the invading army.

The versailles treaty after WW1 had deeply shamed our nation, and after the wall street crash and during the great depression, crippled out nation as well.

Versaille was a bad peace. This bit I won't even argue with.

The nazi's gave us a radical chance to take back our former glory and to go and take what was ours for the taking.

Yeah, taking back former glory should be all the rage I figure. Let's bring back the Pharoahs and Chinese Emperors while we're at it. Anyone else figure the Incas should stage a comeback? And I can't even begin to tell you how much I miss the Mongol Empire.

I did enjoy the "ours for the taking" comment - if you can take something you are entitled to it. Elevating thievery to a philosophy is such a simple alternative to civilisation.

Sieg Heil.

Uh, right. Sure. And "damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead" or "Tippicanoe and Tyler too" to you. Or whatever.

I hope you get a good mark on your psych experiment.

[JerseyJohn]

Brian Rock --

Originally posted by Emil Siebold.

"We Germans were and still are a proud race, with a proud history. We are not ashamed of the First World war, or even the military aspects of World War 2. The killing of Jews, poles, gypsies and so on we are not proud of, and we consider it a great national wound that we allowed such things to happen. But when it comes down to it, we Germans were not nazi's-we were germans. We did not want to wipe out races of peoples, but we did want our living space.

The fact he felt he had to state his beliefs so blatantantly and with such disregard for Germany's neighbors helped convinced me of his legitamacy. Such statements would be typical of a person raised in a society that felt it had an ax to grind and something to prove. A society like Germany of the 1930's.

Oritinally quoted from Emil Siebold "...The truth was that the nazi's were (with a few exceptions, such as the men in my own Hitlerjugend division, who were more nazi's by indoctrination than choice) cowards who hid behind the ordinary German citizen after the war...."

This is also interesting. Why would this thought occur to a much younger person? Why would a person who hadn't lived in late '40s Germany hold former Nazis in contempt for recreating themselves and blending in with the crowd? If this guy's a fraud my hat's off to him. He's done his homework. If not, I'd like to hear what he has to say.

JayJay_H -- We all have our share of typos and mispellings. If he's in his seventies I'd say he'd have even more than usual.

If this guy is for real, whether or not we agree with his views, it would be interesting to hear them. You don't find anything out by smothering a person before they've actually said anything.

As for him being EB in a different guise, I don't think so. EB would probably take a more obvious approach -- I shudder to imagine him attempting to defend Nazism the way he defended Stalinsim -- saying the purges and gulags were necessary, etc.!

As for it's belonging in this group of forums, as I said from the outset, maybe not, but I hope it stays here long enough for the guy to say something. If he's for real the difference between him and EB is he lived through what he's talking about, not resurrecting and attempting to defend the indefensible decades after it's death!

[ December 16, 2002, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[SpitfireMarkX]

I do not mean to make any problems, I think it is amazing to hear from a WW2 Axis vetren. There are a few disagrements, on my side.

QUOTE

"The truth was that the nazi's were (with a few exceptions, such as the men in my own Hitlerjugend division, who were more nazi's by indoctrination than choice) cowards who hid behind the ordinary German citizen after the war."

I have done personal regionalism on Nazism, and the matter of fact, although they were brainwashed, MOST Germans believed they were the perfect, dominate race.

Quote

We did not want to wipe out races of peoples, but we did want our living space.

WHAT?! You wanted living space so you shuved minoritys into dispicable concentration camps, and creating genicide, (I do NOT hold any German back for that, inless if they still believe in those views) to solve that yet at the same time you had almost all male teenagers and men join the army? I am in Canada, here we are one of few countries who take multiculturalism and bilingualism into our constitution. There are over 100 cultures in Canada, and you see different cultures every day here. I see 0 problem with that, they take up as much living space as a regular Canadian.

Quote

The versailles treaty after WW1 had deeply shamed our nation, and after the wall street crash and during the great depression, crippled out nation as well. The nazi's gave us a radical chance to take back our former glory and to go and take what was ours for the taking. Sieg Heil.

It did, the allies should have waited until a year after the war for the treaty, when thier would be less apointed anger at Germany. Still, after an amount of years, Still you could have solved that politically, and could be a good nation again.

I AM SICK OF HEARING "THEY DECLARED WAR ON US" :mad: , and making you seem like a non-agressionary nation.

OTHER ACTS WHERE EUROPEAN, AND COMMONWEALTH NATIONS COULD HAVE DECLARED WAR.

1933-1934: REBUILDING THE WAR MACHINE AT A VERY ALARMING RATE

I BELIEVE 1935: RE-ENTERING THE RHINE LAND, A VIOLATION OF A PEACE TREATY (ALTHOUGH IT WAS STUPID) AND THERE WAS NO NEED, NO ONE WAS GONNA INVADE.

INVASION, TAKEOVER OF AUSTRIA: UNNEEDED, A VIOLATION BY ALL STANDARDS OF ANY LAW, THAT WAS AN ACT OF WAR.

MUNICH CRISIS, INVASION OF CZECHSLOVAKIA: AN ACT OF WAR, ATCACKING FRANCES, BRITAINS ALLY, UNNEEDED. ALLIES STILL DIDNT DECLARE WAR.

1939-SOVIET NAZI NON-AGRESSION ACT- AN ACT SHOWING GERMANY DID NOT CARE FOR THE VERY VERY FAIR DEAL GERMANY GOT IN MUNICH, SAID THEY WERE GOING TO INVADE POLAND, AND GIVE PARTS OF ROMANIA TO GERMANY. I believe this gives both Poland and Romania, along with Commonwealth and European Allies a right to declare war, all but Poland didnt, Poland had a right to defend themselves, they HAD to make the first strike to even stand a minor chance.

Some say Germany was just protecting there boundries :confused: , Austria, Czechlaslovakia, Denmark, Norway, Greace, Yougoslovia, Vichy France, USSR were not your boundries, none of those countries declared war on Germany. ALso Poland never would have touched Germany if Germany didnt put it in paper they were going to invade and cut up Poland.

Again it is amazing to even hear from a German WW2 War vetren, but those are my points. And I am VERY proud of what my country and my countrys allies did in Europe

I am ESPEICALLY PROUD of what Canada did from September 8th on, and may I say, All who have died, rest in piece.

Thank you

Brad

[jon_j_rambo]

Brad Tennant --- Nice take, rack 'em. Everybody knows my opinion on the German history...But to play "Devil's Advocate" (good movie), wasnt' their some dude name "Shindler's List" or something (another good movie).

Wow, I'm seeing a pattern in my source of knowledge, Movies.

Maybe Rambo should try reading a book.

Rambo >>>>>>> This mission (thread) is over

[Martinov]

Reminds me of a story my friend told me. His cousin was a soldier in the BAOR (British Army of the Rhine) in the cold war 70's.

My friend asked what it was like keeping an eye on those bastards and his cousin replied "Bloody important work, those guys would be at us in a minute if they could!"

My friend replied he felt safer knowing our boys were so vigilant against the Rooshans.

"The Rooshans?! Hell no! It's those Germans you gotta keep an eye on! They tried twice and you can just tell they'd be at it again in a minute if us and the ruskies weren't sitting on them!"

Interesting view from the front.

[JayJay_H]

Originally posted by Brad Tennant:

WHAT?! You wanted living space so you shuved minoritys into dispicable concentration camps, and creating genicide, (I do NOT hold any German back for that, inless if they still believe in those views) to solve that yet at the same time you had almost all male teenagers and men join the army?

Read the book: Why Auschwitz (G. Heinsohn). It proves for what reasons the holocaust really was committed. Not for religious reasons. Hitler wanted to get the Germans a strategical advantage over our enemies with having no conscience. And he wanted to get rid of the christian social values and ideas of morality, which are strongly related with the jewish values, especially valueing the life over everything else. If the jewish people would have been obliterated from the face of the earth, their ideas of morality would have been either. Hitler always admired Dschingis Khan, who also murdered out living space for his people, thats what Hitler exactly wanted again: The right to kill

Why wasnt there a need for this? It was a need to overcome the shame of versailles, and thats what it was. Of cause there was no one gonna invade, that doesnt matter here. The point is as with all the other Violations youve stated, Germany was just rebuilding her glory after Nov 1918

[ December 17, 2002, 05:58 AM: Message edited by: JayJay_H ]

[Willard]

Sorry Emil---

If you are legit and since you havent posted a response, I doubt that you are, you will not win any sympathy from me...

We should have sent every German to hell.

I dont care what your revisionist views of history are.

I dont care how you justify your actions during the war so you can get a good nights rest from your well deserved nightmares.

It is obvious from your post (if you are not trolling) that you still believe the Nazi crap you used to eat when you were younger...

The truth was that the Nazi's were (with a few exceptions, such as the men in my own Hitlerjugend division, who were more nazi's by indoctrination than choice) cowards who hid behind the ordinary German citizen after the war.

Wow, I guess all those Germans "Sieg Heiling" in the propaganda films were extras right???

We Germans were and still are a proud race, with a proud history.

Ummm, the use of "German" and "race" should not be included in the same sentance or paragraph or book. The Germans are a nation or a people or a culture. Your use of the term "race" to describe Germans, stinks of Nazi racial beliefs.

We are not ashamed of the First World war, or even the military aspects of World War 2.

You should be ashamed. The Kaiser started the war simply because of some bull**** petty family squabble and a German inferiority complex (which is still evident in your post). As for the military aspects of WW2, German troops led to the destruction and death of millions, if not by direct action, then by their military conquest which enabled later atrocities. And please dont degrade yourself like a dog by claiming you were "defending Germany."

But when it comes down to it, we Germans were not nazi's-we were germans. We did not want to wipe out races of peoples, but we did want our living space.

Total Bull****!!! The only way you could get your blessed "lebensraum" was by wiping out other peoples. Did you think that the Poles and Russians were simply going to let the Fraus move in? And what did you need your "lebensraum" for??? German population is greater today than it was pre-war. I certainly dont hear any clamoring for more room now! And for the record please note the use of the phrase "race of peoples" once again. The Nazi stink still pervades your writing.

The versailles treaty after WW1 had deeply shamed our nation, and after the wall street crash and during the great depression, crippled out nation as well.

The Versailles Treaty, although harsh, was much more lenient than the one imposed by the Germans on the French after 1870 or the Austrians in 1866 or even the Belgians in 1914...I guess you forgot about the war penalty imposed on Brussels in August of 1914?

As for the great depression, it effected and crippled countries world-wide. Yes Germany suffered, yes it may have suffered more than others, but certainly not enough to justify war or Nazism---which is what you are trying to do.

The nazi's gave us a radical chance to take back our former glory and to go and take what was ours for the taking. Sieg Heil.

LOL, if anyone cant read this and not laugh, you are a fool. "Former glory," WTF does that mean?? You were entitled to take back nothing!!! And the use of the phrases "take back our former glory" and "take what was ours for the taking" are certainly feable attempts to cowardly justify war.

The "Sieg Heil" comment is disgraceful. No further comment needed on that point.

No, I'm not proud of what the Nazi's did. Yes I am proud of what the army did-we deserved to win, and it was only because the British and French didn't want us to be powerful that we fought them in the first place-they declaired war on us, not the other way around. **** Hitler, but Deutchland Uber Alles.

LMAO off!!! It wasnt the British and French's fault moron. I love the use of the technicality of France and Britain, "they declared war on us" comment. I guess you forgot about the whole illegal invasion of Poland and Brit/France's treaty obligation??? It was German troops invading Poland, unprovoked naked aggression, that started WW2, nothing else. The blame is squarely on your shoulders.

As for the "**** Hitler, Deutschland Uber Alles" comment, it is obvious you havent learned much over the past 50 years. Saying "**** Hitler" doesnt make you any less of a Nazi now. It is obvious from your comments that you are still a true believer.

Perhaps if you were man enough you could admit your sins and have some chance at redemption.

Well there is really nothing more to add. Perhaps you will find peace and penance in your final days. If not, please say hello to Adolf and the crew in hell.

[J P Wagner]

Well done Willard, but I do believe the fool was a troll. He's probably giggling right now while adjusting his lederhosen...he needs to sell his nonsence somewhere else as it doesn't belong in this forum.

[Willard]

BTW, I would like to add a few more comments...

First off, it disgusts me to see members of the board pandering to this Emil Siebold. Especially in light of his blatantly Nazi sympathizing comments. Your fawning over him like he was the only girl at the prom!!!

I am sure some of you will denounce me for making judgements with out exeperiencing "the times" and various other naive attempts to discredit my posts. However, I dont need to "live in the times" to know right from wrong.

And I can also read what this person wrote.\

I SUGGEST YOU DO THE SAME.

It is one thing if this person had written that he had fought in the war and was going to speak frankly about what had happened. However, his post reeks of re-hashed Nuremburg defenses utilized by the guilty Nazis. Always blaming others, always crying "encirclement" (ala the Kaiser) and always crying they were forced to defend the Fatherland. RUBBISH!!!!

And btw, I dont buy that crap for a single minute that the Germans didnt know what was going on. That is total BULL****. They knew exactly what was going on.

Where do you think the German childhood scolding expression "You'll go up the chimney" came from???

You mean to tell me those villages next to the camps didnt know what was going on?

You mean to tell me that the German armament industries using hundreds of thousands of slave labor didnt know what was going on?

You mean to tell me that the Germans settlers in formerly Polish territory never wondered where all the Poles went???

Please just tell me you were just following orders. Please just tell me you were doing your duty for the Fatherland. It makes it easy for you then if we give you that out. You can wipe your conscience clean if that is done. But I wont do it. I wont give you that. The Allies may have absolved Germany's sins by hanging 20 at Nuremburg, but it took more than 20 to accomplish what was done. It took more than a 1000 or a 100,000 or even a 1,000,000.

Think long and hard about it.

Some of you may claim that I unfairly blame this poor old man for wrongs he possibly could not have committed. Please read again. I am not blaming him for anything. I am simply calling him to the floor to defend his revisionist history driven statements.

My suggestion for any moderator who reads this is to close/delete this thread and have Emil Siebold banned from posting. There is no need for his nonsense in a respectable gaming forum.

[SeaWolf_48]

Come on you guys, if we didn't have the Germans to beat every fifty years or so, we wouldn't have any good war games.

Sieg Heil means " Hail Victory " nothing nazi.

Deutschland uber alles means "Germany over all" a modern day saying might be "US Rules Who-ah" The German race now is half Russian anyway!

We will raise again means "Germany better take tons of Viagra, because the country is so liberal now they make Jimmy Carter look like Bruce Willis in, Die Hard"

Now something serious, Why doesn't Tripoli have a port(reasons Malta was so important), or where is the Murmansk Archangel Convoy route. The Russians needed to recieve MPP's to survive. Also Iceland was important for Anti-Submarine Warfare!

Thanks Guys

[mkctanker]

Life! Life was cheap then as it has been many many times in history. The Crusades come to mind. Is this an excuse? No! It is just the way mankind can be swayed at a given time. Who's fault? Everyones. But is this the debate?

I've read that some joined the SS late in the war because they were better supplied better equiped. Could be true, I don't know.

What I do know is what my Dad told me, he said when they took regular troops prisoner they would sit down and talk about the farming in the area and what the crop may be like when the war was over. As for the SS, he said they ran into some units of Hitlerjungen in Munich. The worst part was their stubborn resistance and the thought of killing 15 and 16 year old boys! My Dad was only 20 years old at the time.

My Dad didn't hate the Germans, he was 3/4 German himself. My Grandfather fought in WW1 as a medic because he still had relitives in Germany and he of course didn't hate the German's.

War is full of terrible things that's a given, both sides cannot say they are free of sin. That's why wars have to end.

My final point is, these men are now in their 70's and 80's and deserve all the respect we can give them no matter what side they were on, soon they will all be gone. It is pointless to condem all for some, God will be the final judge for all.

Hope this hasn't been too deep but I think everyone has strong oppinions of WW2 and the more I learn about it the more they change.

This fellow if he is a fake should back off. It was a noble fight and should be honored.

Please let us get away from this politics of the war and get back to the game.

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by Willard:

". . .First off, it disgusts me to see members of the board pandering to this Emil Siebold. Especially in light of his blatantly Nazi sympathizing comments. Your fawning over him like he was the only girl at the prom!!!"

If this refers to my comments and those of Carl von Mannerheim you're way off base and out of line. I stated from the start that I wanted to hear his views even if they were completely contrary to my own.

Instead what we got were your views and those of a dozen others who happen to have identical views to your own. We've all heard all the patriotically correct flag waving jingo before --it would have been good to have heard a little from someone who still honestly believes in the wrong side -- and yes, contrary to what a few people believe I view it as the wrong side!

If this guy is for real and, forty years after the fact still believes in naziism and all it's racial hatred then he should be allowed to voice his opinion, not because they're good opinions, they aren't, but because some of us would like to understand how anyone can be so wrong for so long.

You and the other flag-wavers became a lynch mob. It's easy to scream and howl when you know the other side is wrong; infinitely more difficult to try and get inside the other side's head and try to figure out what the reasoning is.

This guy may have been a fake or he may have been for real. But we won't find out because in your self-exaltation you amateur archeologists have trashed the dig! Naturally we all have your word for it, which is as reassuring as it is worthless. For the record that Sig Heil was just as repugnant to me as it was to anyone else; but I was willing to tolerate it for the sake of finding out more about the guy. Thankfully that's no longer necessary as you and a few others have fill us in on all we'll ever need to know about him. Which means we still really know nothing, except your extremely conventional and closed-minded opinions.

Congratulations to you and the others for being a bunch of fine patriots or whatever you think you are, and even an even finer lynch mob without a mind.

mkctanker

Grateful that you maintained an objective outlook. The only way to learn is to listen openly to everyone's opinions, not by screaming our views for the sake of smothering the opinions we don't want to hear voiced.

Thanks again for your posting. I'm tired of being called a nazi because I want to hear from the other side -- I've been hearing from our side since the fifties and recite the righteous litany as loudly as anyone else, but I don't choose to, there are always too many others already doing it.

If I were introduced to Satan himself I'd be more interesting in hearing what he had to say about himself than in hearing a thousand saints screaming the usual denunciations of him (I reserve the right to deny this statement should I ever actually be in that situation, in which event the thousand saints are free to do whatever they'd like to get me the hell out of there!)

[ December 17, 2002, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

In fairness to those I've just called a lynch mob, principally Willard, who seems like a decent guy -- I've just posted the following in the Atlantic Loop Forum after an Emil entry, and am reproducing it here to try and get some results. If our Emil can't be induced to emerge from his bombshelter then the rest of you are welcome to tear him apart unmolested.

(From other Forum)

Whatever . . .

Fine, Emil, now how about making another posting in the forum you started where a lot of others who used to get along are presently at each other's throats defending and attacking your remarks or, more accurately your right to have come out with them. Some of us are still interested in hearing what you have to say, which so far has been scant little in relation to the disention it's caused. Or, was that the intention all along, as some of the contributors have been claiming? Also, the Sig Heil doesn't help; it's no longer an accepted greeting and makes it harder for others to support you. I for one don't appreciate being labelled a nazi for having given moral to support to someone who doesn't have the decency to either finish what he started or the self-respect to defend himself.

[Emil Seibold]

Willard, first off, sorry I did not reply-I am not on the internet 24/7-you'll usually have to wait 24 hours to get a reply like this, which is why they are usually soo long. It is unfortunate that I cannot defend myself in real-time, but there you go. The point has been raised about getting living space and wiping out peoples were virtually the same thing-I disagree. While I never fought on the Eastern Front (Thank whatever god there may be) so I cannot comment first-hand on the massacres that took place. The fact was that most of the massacres took place at the hands of special SS murder squads (not to be associated with the Waffen SS-the fighting arm, as it is so commonly done) and not your typical german soldier. As to the raping and pillaging, as Joe Stalin himself said after the war in reguards to his own soldiers doing the same to Germans, "These men have come thousands of miles through rivers of blood. Now when the feast in the land of their enemy, can it not be expected that they take the spoils of war?" I never murdered one single person in that war. I never dragged an old jew out of his house and shot him. I fought and killed SOLDIERS, just like me (although I was much younger than them) who were out to do the same thing to ME. Thats war. Though I must say, seeing as to my fanaticism back then (I grew up with NAZI NAZI NAZI blowing in my ears) and if I were given an order to liquidate a ghrotto of Jews, poles, gypsies or anyone else you care to mention, I would have. And I cannot say I have a clean concience-I once willingly stood by while 3 American prisioners were shot. I also shot one or two myself while they were attempting to surrender, though as you'll note from films like "Saving private Ryan" and films from other wars, that was common-in the heat of battle you don't always think to take prisioners. The same was done to us. perhaps if the moderators would be so kind as not to close this topic, but to move it to the general forums, as I'd like to discusse it in further detail and answer all of your questions to the best of my ability. And please, don't exprect a reply in 5 minutes-I'm not even in the same time-zone as half of you!

[Willard]

If this refers to my comments and those of Carl von Mannerheim you're way off base and out of line. I stated from the start that I wanted to hear his views even if they were completely contrary to my own.

Sorry Jersey John, but that is not what you wrote the first time.

This is what your wrote, minus some historical analysis...

As you've initiated this forum it's assumed you're willing to comment on the times. I think this would be a valuable service because going by the past forums where these topics emerged, it seemed to me that even people who have read extensively on the war in general have a very poor idea of what it must have been like for those who actually went through it.

As an actual witness to and participant in the actual historical events your views are especially valuable to all those who, like myself were born afterwards and in a different culture yet would still like to know what it was all truly about.

Had you written the following:

...it would have been good to have heard a little from someone who still honestly believes in the wrong side -- and yes, contrary to what a few people believe I view it as the wrong side!

which was from your last post, in the original post, I may have a different viewpoint.

I believe, based upon your response, that you recognize that your previous posts were not appropriate and your are trying to now back off from them and their tone by spinning them in a different light.

I mean honestly, I did not say any names, yet you immediately ask me if I referred to you and CVM. Only the guilty act that way. And to answer your question, yes I am referring to you two. Especially when I read stuff like this from CVM:

Dont worry Emil, not all of us call All german Troops Nazis.

even though the HitlerJugend, the 12th SS Panzer, was an SS division, and many of the Boy soldiers were trained as part material from birth, the were not all Nazis. They were defending their homeland like anyone else.

CvM

Sorry, but if you dont see something wrong with this there is a problem. Why shouldnt Emil worry?

How about a little guilt here?? I am confused about how the Germans were defending their homeland in the sewers of Stalingrad. This patronizing tone is uncalled for. Oh and the boys??? Most of your moral value structure is inplace by the mid-teens. SO PLEASE, enough with the "brainwashing" excuses. People know what is right and wrong. So tell me, how should I have "read" that post???

SO, in order to protect you and CVM, and not take responsibilty for WHAT YOU WROTE, you are trying to discredit my post and others by categorizng them as jingoistic rants...by saying we are the lynchmob...which is ironic given that you are defending a man and his beliefs that never gave quarter to anyone!!!!

IMO, my posts and others were certainly justified especially after the lovefest that was going on earlier in the thread.

Had you expressed the sentiments in your response earlier, I probably would have reacted differently. However you did not and the proof is in the post, so-to-speak.

Only you know what your initial intent was. I only know what I read. Had I been the only one who "read" your posts that way, you may have a leg to stand on. However, myself and others saw similar things in your posts that we felt were inappropriate. Please dont attempt discredit us with a "it is them, not me" argument. We only know what you write, so be more careful.

And for the record...had you expressed yourself more clearly in the intitial post, I would applaud the effort...so long as the thread was carefully monitored and it was clear to all that any excesses would be curbed.

Additionally since it was Emil who started this thread, it appears that he is the one with the agenda. He certainly doesnt need Carl or you to defend him...yet he is mysteriously absent from any of these subsequent posts.

Oh, I know, it must have been me who scared off the WW2 vet. Trust me, if he is legit, he will return to defend himself. He certainly should not be afraid of me given the horrors he claims to have faced.