Germany won ww2

[Kuniworth]

2002; the european monetary union(EMU)is a reality. More and more country wanna join. Who really won ww2?

Germany;

Sure Germans were beaten in the field, but hey they got rid of Hitler and is today the new powerhouse of Europe. Festung Europa once again shows it shadows...

France;

Lost. Of course. Today a very protective state, like it was back in the 1930:s. Afraid of Germany, dont like the influential US culture. France is a protector of france, a superpower wanna-be while Jean-Marie LePen roames the street and insist on keepin it...french.

United Kingdom;

Oh dear, survived yes but what happened thereafter? Yep lost the commonwealth and all it´s influential power. Anyone saw George Michaels new video...Tony B doing the dirty work of their former colony; USA...

Russia;

Saved the country but got communist-leadership for 46 more years. Today a more or less lawless country with enormous economical problem. Funny thing about this great country is that it always is the subject of great changes, however what never change is the suffering of it´s poor people.

USA;

Won the war and keeps on fighting real or imaginary enemies still today. The absolut winner of the war. The new weapons don´t have names like Sherman instead they are called Coca cola or McDonalds. In Sweden almost every tv-program is form the US. Hey Guys, you really won, we all adjust into your culture.

So this is how it ended: We all end up in some sort of western democratic mcdonalds-cultural thing. It´s not bad but it could be better.

Will it be a new world war then? Certainly, but it´s gonna be about trade and economy. Shootin someone in the head is out, letting everyone buy Mercedes is in. I most say USA seem the favorite to win once again.

But hey what does germany think about that

[iolo]

Interesting post. Personally, I think that next world war will be between haves and have-nots. It won't make for great video games.

[Guest Mike]

The European war of the 20th century was about whether Germany would dominate Europe, or be an important part of it.

National politics aside Germany doesn't dominate Europe much these days - it's unemployment is at 9%, twice that of the UK, the former DDR is still a huge economic burden, it is almost as socialist in it's welfare state as Sweden and generally is not the capitalist paradise it may have been 20-30 yrs ago.

Germany certainly did not win WW2 - it recovered from it.

The next war will be whether the USA dominates the world, or is an important part of it.

[Kuniworth]

Very interesting posts both of you.

Mike; Very interesting post, I believe you may be right about the US, really liked your analyzis there. However If you look at the work of the European Union you will see a clear pattern that the protective stance of french allows Germany to dominate the partnership, makin alliances with other socialdemocratic countries. Yep they really are the new powerhouse of Europe. So what happened in 50 years? they are back on top of the european bunch. Like it or not.

To dominate the world is not an easy task. To stay up there in the longrun is almost impossible. The only country ever came close is the UK. Like the US today it relied on a superb trade position in the world. But a war, national movements here and there made it impossible to continue with that. The mongolians someone may say? Yes a large country, but not very solid, extremely weak after oppresing diffrent cultures and building it´s power on military force. Their decline came quick fot that time.

/ Andreas from Sweden(a country that fell from dominating the European continent in early 17th-century, to fight its last war 1814)

[Krikke]

USA won WWII, on the long run, Germany has the second place. Western Germany is an economic world power, and the east is catching up with it now. Kuniworth is completely right.

You shouldn't be hammering on Russia tough, I've bin there, and have friends there, things are getting better now, people are still poor, and crime rates rize, but the country is improving.

[Kuniworth]

Well maybe your right, but I don´t have much sympathy for the bandit-capitalism that ruins Russia, and forces people to starve or young girls to go west for prostitution or garbage jobs.

The leadership of Russia is a disaster. But my respect for the russian people is immense. They saved the world, lost 20 million but never broke in the face of tyranny. Through hell and oppression they fought against horrible odds to win their right to excist. Their courage and determination is unmatched.

Let us never forget them.

[jmbunnelle]

Interesting topic. I wouldn't quite go so far as to call Germany the economic powerhouse of Europe. As for who won the war, the only real winners were obviously the US and USSR. Everyone else was in debt up to their eyeballs. The US had every intention of maintaining control over the world's resources at the end of the war in order to maintain its industrial output and avoid sinking into another depression (Kolko’s THE POLITICS OF WAR is by far the best book on the subject). The ultimate by-product of this is what you mention, namely cultural imperialism and a somewhat sanctimonious and patriarchal attitude towards the rest of the world.

[Desert Dave]

The idea of "liberal progress" -- gaining ever more powerful momentum since The Enlightenment, surely "won" WW2. Whether this is a good or not-so-good prospect, I leave to the imagination.

USA eagerly filled the vaccuum and the Marshall Plan was an active bid for new and hungry markets on the Continent. Influence peddling never had it so glorious since the days of hawking all-purpose "medicines" out of the back of a traveling wagon.

Interesting to note that Gigantic Corporations have come to dominate our planet (re: Eisenhower's omniscient warning about Military-Industrial Complex -- now merging with real AND imagined imperatives of the National Security State).

Iolo is closest to truth with warning of never ending wars between haves & have-nots -- between the defenders of the Status Quo and the spoiling "Outsiders," though this will depend on charismatic leaders arising out of the soil, so to speak (... ah, briefly, then searched out and ciphered or, "adjusted" as in the movie Blade Runner?) and whether they can rally support across philosphical/spiritual boundaries, namely the constantly tending chauvanistic national states.

Environmentalism, which came of age in the 60s, may be the one common haven, in that the (... bare) majority are interested in preserving the earth. I am thinking more of the deeply interested German variety than the "dilletante" sort ordinarily found in USA.

Who lost? "Communalists" of every type and indication. More specifically, Britain (which is why they are so oddly and uncomfortably "married" to USA now) and France -- with nuclear power as their last shuddering gasp, and as Krikke has suggested, the long-suffering Russian people.

In a certain sense then, may be that The "physical" Earth has lost. :eek:

(... on a lighter note -- the mighty poor and deprived American baseball players may go on strike this coming Friday! Good! Let them. Use fresh-faced and easily excited kids again. Maybe then we can have our old game back... ) :cool:

[SeaMonkey]

Who won the war? We all did. I must say its rejuvinating to have such an international perspective on a gaming forum with many intelligent opinions. I'm an American but not so shortsighted that I don't recognize that really we are a world community. No one does anything without an impact, however indirectly, on everyone else. We are all responsible for each other but our diversification is the engine of our improvement. Didn't someone say "If we're all thinking alike, someone's not thinking". Keep the "line in the sky" open.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

Germany;

Sure Germans were beaten in the field, but hey they got rid of Hitler and is today the new powerhouse of Europe. Festung Europa once again shows it shadows...

France;

Lost. Of course. Today a very protective state, like it was back in the 1930:s. Afraid of Germany, dont like the influential US culture. France is a protector of france, a superpower wanna-be while Jean-Marie LePen roames the street and insist on keepin it...french.

Why are you surprised?

The French knew they screwed up when Napoleon III let Germany unify.

[mavraam]

Everyone talks about how well Germany has done. I agree, but what about Japan? An over populated, resource starved island that has developed the second largest economy in the world.

Obviously, America won the war by leaps and bounds. But all of Western Civilization (and I include Japan in that because they are so Westernized) and Democracy has won.

The next world war (which has already started, btw) is between forward looking, modern, free thinking, democratic countries and backward looking, primitive, despots.

It will be ugly and painfull and many people will be duped into killing and dying for false causes. And in the end, it will all be for nothing because mankind marches relentlessly forward and those who try to stop progress get crushed beneath its wheels.

They knock down a building, we wipe out a country. We have more buildings than they do countries.

[Norse]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

2002; the european monetary union(EMU)is a reality. More and more country wanna join. Who really won ww2?

Germany;

Sure Germans were beaten in the field, but hey they got rid of Hitler and is today the new powerhouse of Europe. Festung Europa once again shows it shadows...

France;

Lost. Of course. Today a very protective state, like it was back in the 1930:s. Afraid of Germany, dont like the influential US culture. France is a protector of france, a superpower wanna-be while Jean-Marie LePen roames the street and insist on keepin it...french.

Correct me if I misunderstand you.

Do you mean when you say "Festung Europe once again show's its shadows...", that EU is the Third Reich from ww2?

About France, what on earth makes you say that France is afraid of Germany? They don't haveto be afraid of Germany. Germany has abselutely no interest in attacking France. Territories that could cause a dispute between them, are no longer a cause for fuss, read about Lothringen. But I am interested in hearing about your other point of view. What makes you say otherwise?

~Norse~

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by mavraam:

It will be ugly and painfull and many people will be duped into killing and dying for false causes. And in the end, it will all be for nothing because mankind marches relentlessly forward and those who try to stop progress get crushed beneath its wheels.

Usually true, at least thus far, but not so often -- reasonable or righteous.

All is not so Manichaein, is it?

I say let's have more of these sorts of wondering, whole-world wandering folk: Spartacus, saints Theresa of Avila and Calcutta, Kierkegaard, HD Thoreau, Carl Jung, Ghandi and... hmmmm, and what the heck?????

Not so many! if ANY... of late, who have been quite as Enlightened or Thoughtful as is obviously needed... to insure that the real Common Wisdom keeps plenty apace -- with the Western-most notion of a fast forward motion... "Progress!"

[Handsup]

France;

Lost. Of course. Today a very protective state, -like it was back in the 1930:s. Afraid ofGermany, dont like the influential US culture. France is a protector of france, a superpower wanna-be while Jean-Marie LePen roames the street and insist on keepin it...french.

----

I dont think so. France was in the same situation like Britain. On the one hand they won the war but on the other hand they lost their colonies (india, north-africa...). The economy was damaged for the next few years.

Germany´s industry was completly destroyed after war. The Marshall plan helped (in the 50s)to develop the natural potential as an european powerhouse. Of course 82 million germans wanted start a new life...(UK+F=110million inhabitants)

Today western europe is a kind of a big nation family. 12 countries have the same money yet. This is a really historic step for the "old continent". But there is no german plan to dominate europe. That is bullsh*t! All europeans(and germans) want to live together in harmony.

The European Union is a new kind of international subject. Not a state and not a confederation. Its a successful instrument(since the last 50 years) to solve problems in europe and in its neighbourhood. The most countries in eastern europe ask(-ed) for membership. 2004 the first wave will join(eg poland, cyprus(southern part), slovenia, czech and malta).

Europe presents itself more and more as a unit towards the US, russia, china and japan. It plays an important role in the present world and its influence will grow constantly.

And that is the best way to manage the dangerous and unknown future!

My opinion as a german who studies politics and history in Muenster.

[Aloid]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

<snip>...(ouch)

Coca cola or McDonalds.

I find it funny when McDonalds and Coke are brought up as the icons for the US's victory in WW2. I realize that they are despised in some places because they are seen as a symbol for capitalism, and thus supposed US power.

Why I find it funny, is because I can get in my car to go to the store, drive past a bazillion foreign made cars (Japanese, German, English, Korean, etc.), buy Heineken beer (ice cold), or Corona Beer (Mexico if you don't know), find fresh produce and meats all the way from Australia (forget the Fosters, mate), try on clothes made in Indonesia, and buy just about anything, and it's made in China.

Heck, I work for a company that produces and imports produce from 90 countries. Shipping to people around the world.

I see the EU as a positive step toward bridging the isolated European markets, and bringing the global economy that much closer to the folks in Europe. Other parts of the world are moving together as well. This kind of change is difficult (and positively scary), just ask the Russians right now.

I think the next war will be waged by those parts of the world that cannot adjust to this kind of globalization, or have some designs on global military power (China??). We're seeing the evidence of this rift in the Middle East. Rife with dictators, and governmental systems that are failures, these countries lash out at others, because they refuse to take the responsibility for their own situation. They say the US is the great satan, while not realizing that in many cases, the US funds aid to their country to help feed their people.

This could go on…

The bottom line from my point of view is that Western democracies, and the ideals of personal freedoms and self responsibility, are what won the war. Dictatorships, etc. where the losers.

People won their basic rights right to freedom, which was arguably a game started by the French… so maybe we should blame the French for all of this!

Aloid (BTW, the US has more people from more countries lving in it than any other country in the world. I don't know that I could tell you what our culture really is anymore. It's not what it was in 1940's... it's constantly changing, and I think a little lost right now.)

[Desert Dave]

Aloid, thoughtful ideas all around the town.

Sometimes those who live outside of USA tend to view us as monolithic -- with the government monopolizing world attention, when actually -- we have as many viewpoints, and philosophies as there are people.

For certain it is always an interesting place, if not easily understood... even by those who were born and raised here.

[jmbunnelle]

I am thankful for the comments everyone. Although I'm obviously on a different page than several of you concerning my views on US foreign policy over the last fifty years, I respect your input and will break my longstanding rule of never talking politics on a wargaming forum. So let's continue to keep it civil. I'm sure I don't have to mention that things like this can very easily become an ugly flame war between yin and yang.

As for the next war, I disagree that it will be a showdown between despots and so-called "free thinking" democracies. Like a few mentioned, I see very little free-thought in the West these days, particularly with regard to those who shape and construct policy. To call the events following the WTC a World War is misleading to say the least. "You're with us or you're against us" is not exactly the spirit of cooperation. And don't even get me started on the Iraq thing.

The unfolding of the next fifty years will be interesting and possibly quite ugly. Being an American and knowing the enormous amount of people here who fall completely out of the political spectrum (i.e. think all politicians are self-serving and full of s**t, don't vote and don't trust the government, etc.), I think it's only a matter of time before some seriously charismatic, whacked-out, ex-vacuum-cleaner salesman motivates the apathetic majority and convinces them that he is in their best interest, which he may very well be, who knows. And I'm not talking about militia groups or any of that popular paranoia, I'm talking about the average worker who just wants to take care of his/her family and provide for them with a house, a car, etc. If someone who is power-hungry and clever finds a way to tap into this segment of the population (not easy) and motivate them, it could get very nasty indeed. Granted, the electoral system is now arranged in such a way as to exclude outsiders, but this may not always be the case. If real wages continue to drop as they have in the past and the working poor in the US reaches unprecedented levels (one study at JHU showed that the gap between the rich and the poor in Manhattan alone was so extreme as to only be replicated on a former leper colony in the South Pacific), anything could happen. It is, after all, the story of history. I see no real reason for it to be different next time. Old wine, new bottles, as they say.

One more thing: that being said, I think the fact that there are several countries represented here by posters on this forum, each with his own worldview, is one of the major contributions in the modern age. It's seemingly small things like that which remind me of the positives of the the e-marketing super--I mean, the information superhighway.

[ August 26, 2002, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: jmbunnelle ]

[Gunslingr3]

The winner in WW2 was the State, in it's many odious forms.

The loser was the individual and his freedoms that make everything possible.

Gunslinger

[jmbunnelle]

LOL--Gunslinger, where the hell did you get that poster??

[Gunslingr3]

The European Union is a new kind of international subject. Not a state and not a confederation. Its a successful instrument(since the last 50 years) to solve problems in europe and in its neighbourhood.

Successful perhaps in pushing initiatives like ending "tax competition" http://www.cato.org/dailys/01-10-02.html and eradicating individual privacy http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,52829,00.html

I'm personally not so sure those successes are worth crowing about.

[Gunslingr3]

Oddly enough I can't bring up the website I saved them from. The individual's name was Micah Wright, but the url I have doesn't bring up a page anymore. Perhaps he was an enemy combatant...

http://homepage.mac.com/leperous/PhotoAlbum1.html

Here's a link where you can still find some of the pictures. Be forewarned, the article they're included with is pretty 'out there'.

http://www.hermes-press.com/brainwash1.htm

[dpstafford]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

Well maybe your right, but I don´t have much sympathy for the bandit-capitalism that ruins Russia

Now I don't want to get off on a rant here, but since you mentioned "bandit-capitalism", what about the crony-capitalism that ruined Japan's economy, and may be doing the same thing in the US (under the watchful eye of our crony-in-chief, George Dubya.

[ August 26, 2002, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: dpstafford ]

[Guest Mike]

Kuniworth I think perhaps we're talking about slightly different concepts.

Germany is, and is likely to remain, a very important part of Europe. It is the largest state (pop'n), and has a central location and a major economy. So it will always be an important voice and influence.

But that isn't what I mean by "dominate" - what I mean by "dominate" is conquer!! Ie Germany may be the largest state in a federation, but it is not in any position to dictate anything and it still has to work co-operatively with the rest of the EU.

IMO that is Germany as a partner in Europe, not Europe beign dominated by Germany.

[Old Patch]

I find the MacDonald's/EU post very interesting. MacDonald's, when it start's off in a new country, makes sure that it's restaurants can get their raw materials locally. That's why they had to spend $400 million to get the first restaurant open in Moscow - they practically built the infrastructure on their own. Compare that to, oh, a new Fiat dealership in Namibia, where the cars are imported just a handful of local mechanics are employed. Who's the the eviler capitalist?

Here's a odd little note - many Economists use "the Big Mac" standard to judge currency values. Since a Big Mac is a standard item, made the same way in all countries from local materials by local labor, it's price (again in the local currency) makes a good bench mark.

[Kuniworth]

Mike: You´re right it´s not the same. But it is still a way to dominate in my opinion. That mean that the control-system differs from military-control but this way is much more effective and stabile.

Old Patch; For my part I´m not talkin about capitalism or not. I´m just pointin out the incredble breakthrough american culture have had in the world.

Oh forgot to tell you all, I´m active in the swedish socialdemocratic party