Seasonal Effects

[pzgndr]

Other than the number of turns per month, are there other seasonal effects in the game? I'm wondering about weather (Spring/Fall rain/mud, Winter snow/storm) in different zones affecting movement, supply, etc. Are weather effects included? Are they random or defined? Just curious.

(You know, a demo would be helpful and make us stop asking all these silly questions! )

[Hubert Cater]

There are no weather effects in the game as you've described, but there is some consideration for Russian winter as there is an increase in partisan activity and the probablility of a Soviet transfer of their Siberian Armny if the 'War In Siberia' option is left unchecked.

[Mr. Clark]

Wow. I'm impressed by all the little background things.

No weather effects seems ok, considering the turn lengths.

[Compassion]

WOuld seem taht weather effect at this scale are sort of shown by the lengthening of game turns when outside of 'campaign season.'

[BloodyBucket]

The Russian Winter tweaks and the shorter turn seem to cover things pretty well. Will there be any seasonal changes to the way the map looks? Strictly eye candy, but it would be a nice touch.

[SuperTed]

Originally posted by BloodyBucket:

...Will there be any seasonal changes to the way the map looks? Strictly eye candy, but it would be a nice touch.

BB,

Nope, but nice try.

[BloodyBucket]

Too bad, I have the feeling I'm going to be taking lots of screenshots as games progress, and a visual change to show what the weather is would be nice touch.

Perhaps a few ornaments in the trees that represent the forest hexes? Or bitmaps that are seasonal, leavig the actual work to the modders in the gaming community?

[Straha]

As the base colour is reserved to show the ZOC, seasonal effects can probably not be shown like in COS (green, white, brown).

Best thing IMO to make seasons visible would be via the mountain and city tiles. Snowcaps and snowy roofs would be nice in winter.

Anyway, while this is pure luxury, I think the city icon *could* be a little bit more pretty. At the moment, a city really looks more like a production site.

Maybe, if we are allowed to mod this stuff, then we could make more individual city icons for London, Paris, Rome etc.

Straha

[BloodyBucket]

To make individual city graphics, there would have to be individual BMPs for each city, and the same goes for seasonal BMPs for the map. In CM, for instance, all vehicles of the same type must be clones, even if you have several different mods available. If SC had seperate BMPs for each city on the map, and came with the same graphic for each one, then modders could change individual cities. The seasonal issue would be more complex, as the game would have to recognize what the weather was and sub the BMP. My idea is to make the individual BMPs, leave the art as it is, and leave it to mod makers to do the work of changing the graphics. The seasonal effects could be limited to the tree and mountain graphics.

Of course, that's easy for me to say 'cause I don't have to program the rascal, and the aim is a simple game at a reasonable price, every little change takes a lot of time, effort, and testing and keeps SC that much further away from release.

[Straha]

Originally posted by BloodyBucket:

To make individual city graphics, there would have to be individual BMPs for each city, and the same goes for seasonal BMPs for the map.

Truth ... and I fear that the "clone"-issue is probably hardcoded.

But individual city graphics would REALLY be nice. Just imagine to drive your Panzers toward a city icon boasting the Eiffel-tower ... little things like these can provide a tremendous boost in additional atmosphere and flavour.

Straha

[pzgndr]

So all turns are essentially the same? In an abstract way, you can argue that less gets accomplished during the long winter turns, which is true. Don't seasons mean anything other than a way to mark time? I mean, with 27 turns per year and each turn the "same", you can look at the game as simply having 2-week turns with zero difference between seasons. There should be some seasonal effects on operations, even with the variable turn-length. Winter rules for non-Finnish Axis units in Russia could modify attack/defense values to slow down the Germans and give the Russians the opportunity for counter-offensives. Winter rules could prohibit seaborne invasions in the Atlantic and Baltic. Supply ranges could be affected. Stuff like that. Since the variable turn-length accounts for most of the seasonal effects in an abstract way, any additional effects would have to be subtle but should be considered.

[Elmo]

Bill

That could be a slippery slope you're on. If you reduce German effectiveness, say in the first Winter after Barbarossa, then you're forcing the player to make the same mistake Hitler made, i.e. we'll take Russia before the snow flies so who needs long underwear. Then people will want an opportunity to spend extra MPP's to knit long johns to avoid the Winter effects, etc. on down the slope.

I'm not saying "no weather or seasonal effects", just that it can qucikly snowball, pun intended.

Elmo

[BloodyBucket]

Hadn't thought about invasions and the weather. While you can make a good case for leaving out special Russian Winter rules, or making them optional, not much could be done to prepare LSTs for winter storms.

Having a January cross channel attack be as likely as a June or July invasion does seem odd.

[Straha]

Originally posted by BloodyBucket:

Having a January cross channel attack be as likely as a June or July invasion does seem odd.

That is true, too.

On a related note, I would like to have weather effects on aircraft.

Straha

[SuperTed]

Guys,

Look at this from an abstract point of view. Now, I agree that a Channel crossing in January would be more risky than in June, but not impossible.

If you consider the structure of the turn system, it makes sense. Namely, since there are four times the turns in summer as in winter, think of it as being four times more likely that a Channel crossing would work in June than in January.

You can apply the same approach to weather effects on air units (and any other units, for that matter). It boils down to "things" being four times easier in the summer as they are in the winter.

Is a 4:1 ratio arbitrary? Perhaps, but that's not the point. The point is that it is an abstraction that attempts to account for inumerable varibles (not the least of whcih is the weather) without getting bogged down in trying to account for each individual variable.

I hope that helps clarify things.

[BloodyBucket]

That's an abstraction I can live with. An option that would increase the odds of the invader losing SPs would be nice.

[pzgndr]

SuperTed, I can accept the abstraction, I just don't feel totally comfortable with it. If production was "per month" and prorated on a turn basis, then it would be easy to see that you get more done with the same resources during summer turns than during winter turns. But that's another issue. My point was there are seasonal effects that may limit certain operations in specific theaters that could be included. The same abstractions that cover Russian winter effects are not appropriate for the Tobruk battles in North Africa during the same time period, but it's all lumped together in SC. This isn't a show-stopper, just something to consider for future enhancements.

[Hubert Cater]

Great points on weather and some of the production irregularities, and in many ways I agree.

Honest answer is again that I had to limit a few things and deal with them as best as I could in trying to get this game done in a reasonable manner. This is not to say that any of these issues will detract from great game, which btw none of these have ever come up in beta testing which I think is a very good sign

No points are being discounted and I am keeping track of everything, some will make it in for the final release and most will see the light of day in some form or another down the road.

[Mr. Clark]

SWEET!