Dutch gambit

[imported_Rannug]

Hi!

I´m quit new to the game but read a lot of useful information at this forum. My problem is that I can´t beat the Dutch gambit. And belive me I have really tried very hard many times. Both against humanplayers and testing against myself.

4 times out of 5 I fail to take France and when I do, it´s to late-may/june 41. The LC falls on turn one so the axis don´t have much time to react more then sending over the Luftwaffe and an army or two. The allies send a plane to the Maginot line to plugg the hole and send the Alger corps to block the Italian border. The Italians enter early but then the mountains are allready blocked by 3 corps and they will never go. When the Axis take the hex southest of Brussels the allies counter attack and normally kills the unit. The axis has more fighters but have problems reparing them to fighting strength and tend to be forced to attack with fighters with only 3 or 4 in strength to have a chance to take that F***ing hex. Fighters are easyly lost to carriers and fewer but stronger allied fighters. Poland and Denmark has fallen with it´s plunder but that money dosn´t go far. The french sell their navy and build a HQ. The Britts will also build a HQ but it takes a a bit more time though. The Allies take it very easy in the Med avoiding the Italian navy, but holding both Gibraltar, Alexandria and Malta.

I know some of you expert player say the gambit is no big problem but it´s beyond me to crack this nut right now..........please help me out.

[Iron Ranger]

Run a serch for the info, Zappsweden has writen a post on how to defeat the Dutch gambit (or Terif, don't remember now).

[imported_Rannug]

I read Zappsweden very useful infomation but some how it must be someting missing (a trade secret?)

The problem is that if you don´t break the line early the economics of things work against you.

The axis fight themselfs bloddy and the allies slowly get stronger and richer...........

[zappsweden]

my LC gambit theory is outdated i admit it. Also, it was on the days most ppl played without a cash handicap.

[santabear]

I only play against the AI, so I can't offer suggestions about this in particular (although I have been able to coax the AI into attacking the low countries by piddling around in the Balkans and Norway--so the "Dutch gambit" is in the AI somewhere).

I can offer the following: It has taken me some time to get proficient at using HQs, expereince and supply to get favorable attack results. If the axis is consistently losing in combat to the French in clear terrain hexes you might double check experience levels and HQ support to make sure you don't have boys fighting men. (And of course have a fresh unit nearby to jump in any hole you create.)

[Kuniworth]

Rannug; Youre wrong - dutch gambit works for you!! Italy is coming into the game, US and Russia are delayed and axis will earn 2000 MMP in total by this manuveour. Just concentrate forces and hit hard, one unit at a time...

[Desert Dave]

I have been following this debate, if that's what it is, since it first came up some months ago.

I would have to agree with those like Kuniworth who argue that it is... NOT WORTH the COST!

So what if it delays the conquest of France, then Norway, or vice-versa? It hardly matters WHEN you complete the "... rounding up of the usual suspects," does it?

What else are you going to do in 1941 anyway? There are only so many fertile fields to plow, yes?

As Axis Hegemon, you may be briefly delayed on your research, and with your desperate purchases of mighty ME-109s & Stukas (... TOO MUCH Air Power is NOT, I repeat NOT... such a dilemma as many would have us suppose), but not by a lot...

AND, as Mr K. and others have confidently stated, the early entry of Italy and USA is a certain boon! to the Allied prospects. :cool:

[imported_Rannug]

It´s not worth it..........well maby one should not try so hard to take France and start taking over minors like Norway, Jugoslavia and ........ but in the menwhile France is just building more and more units and the English are getting jets and longrange tech. I agree that if France falls in a reasonable time it´s good for the Axis with the Dutch gambit, but for sure France has to fall and the sooner the better! My question was how do you break the neck of the french when the LC fall to the Allies on turn one. And don´t say just keep on attacking that hex......tell me how to hit it so the Allies get more hurt then the Axies

[gorskii]

I know some of you expert player say the gambit is no big problem but it´s beyond me to crack this nut right now..........please help me out.

You must be new. You are supposed to be cracking their head not their nut.

Gorski

[Liam]

I hate the Dutch Gambit, if it isn't performed you're ruined for all that operating cost and if it is you're not in place it can be deadly if those units get favourible die rolls, exp...a bid with lots of Brit Airpower. God it's a headache even for someone who is good!

I purpose two things, turn to hit hard take the Dutch or...Save money and save your airpower for removing one French army at a time and in the end you get a full 10 capitol and port, a delayed US entry and Italy<which I don't care for too early> in the war...

You have to learn to break the defenses<focus on 1 army a turn> he only has so many he can sacrifice and if he puts all Brit armies on the continent<focus on destroying them too> and you can do away with Britian early.. You'll need Denmark, Poland, possibly Norway to afford this aggressive aftermath OP..

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Rannug:

It´s not worth it..........well maby one should not try so hard to take France and start taking over minors like Norway, Jugoslavia and ........ but in the menwhile France is just building more and more units and the English are getting jets and longrange tech.

Hej där...oxo från Sverige...

The point is that you must take France but it will take a lot of concentrated firepower to do that. The first unit is the most difficult one. But just use your air and three land units and you will get that important hex.

Its a gamble if allies try to take low countries on first round. More likely they will strike on their second turn...just hit Poland hard the first round and then move over non-attached HQ units to the west front. Then hit allies with 3 air, 1 tank, 2 corps and 1 army.

I can show you in an e-mail game if you want...

[imported_Rannug]

Ok Kuniworth let´s see what you are worth. Hit me with your best shot, in a PBEM game. I´ll be the allies and I´ll do the gambit and I hope you will cruch me. Normally I do want to win but this will be a rare exception. My mail address: gunnar.elgenstrom@utb.boras.se

Why do you (a fellow swede) call yourself kuniworth?

Not my bizniz really, but you are a bit of a celebrity at this forum. Just being a bit "nyfiken".

[JerseyJohn]

Brother Rannug

You have made me a believer. In one of our own PBEM games you're holding the Low Countries like a pit bull and ruining my game as the Axis.

I've adopted your approach in one of my own PBEM games where I'm the Allies and have already held out a long time with no sign of being dislodged.

I hope Hubert does something to make this tactic less rewarding, maybe have a system where the armies of a neutral arrange themselves differently depending upon the direction they're being attacked from.

Anyway, thanks for showing me the light.

[kenfedoroff]

Even though I have never defeated the Dutch Gambit, I still like it. It makes the game more interesting and less predictable. The "What if?" in SC is what makes it so fun.

Ken

[Edwin P.]

kenfedoroff

I agree, it makes the game much more unpredictable.

In fact, I often wish that the Allied AI would use this gambit about 5% of the time (1 in 20 games), just to liven things up.

JerseyJohn

I feel that neutral countries would deploy troops to the border where enemy troops where stationed, except in the case of Belgium where I assume they trusted the French more than the Germans. Am I correct?

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin

Definitely. Until 1936 the French and Belgians had a mutual defense treaty against -- guess who? The Belgians cancelled it believing they could remain neutral because their bristling new forts would protect them. If the British and French had been allowed to move rationally into place before the Germans were crossing the frontier the 1940 Blitz might well have looked like something out of WWI.

On the other hand, a French invasion of Belgium would have been preceded by negotiations and demands so when it finally came it wouldn't have been a surprise attack.

[ April 27, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Iron Ranger]

Thought about going into detail on how to defeat the LC gambit but as I've of late lost two games to it I might not be a good source. So I'll write what not to do and some generalitys.

1) Prepare for it by having three air fleets supported by an HQ within 5 hexs of the capital - This also leaves you good for the attack on Denmark during turns 1&2. Also have 2-4 ground units close enough to attack the hex east of the capital.

2) You must capture Denmark on turn two if you want this to go easy.

3) Turn Three - Finish off poland - attack the east LC hex with your ground troops (your looking to knock him down to '8' and stop entrenchment) - take and hold the North rive hex (if you can) - buy a fourth air fleet and reinforce your starting three - Operate in at least one armor and 1-3 armys from poland.

4) Turn four (this is it) - Finish poland if you didn't in turn three (USSR % goes up next turn) - Attack the east LC hex with 2-3 (hope three) units (make sure they are HQ supplied) and your four air fleet (Hq supplied) - Move your armor into the hex and made sure he will recive supply from a HQ during the counter attack.

5) Repeat if you didn't get the hex or move onto the next hex if you did. Buy a 5th air fleet if you can but you might need to save the polish plunder to reifoce what you have.

Don't

Wait - if you wait more then 2 turns your done (my experence) - The allies will have HQs and reiforced air to stop you

Attack UK navy - for the first 3-6 turns the british navy will be sitting in range but to attack cause's a delay in the ground war - see above

Placement - unit placement has to be exact - you only have 2 HQ's and your going to be dealing with many ZOC and crossing 1-2 river hexs so you will need to have your units in some very exact spots - playtest to find which ones -

Defeating the LC the 'easy' way

Attack on turn two. Alowing the Allies to attack the LC and turning the tables on them can be a game breaker but you need to focus on every detail and thats just not why I'm playing. So attack the LC on turn two and take a beating from the French but you can keep the Axis time table moving forward.